U.S. Edition
By Carol Cratty
A former U.S. Navy submarine warfare specialist has been arrested and charged with trying to give classified information about how to track U.S. submarines to people he thought were representatives of the Russian Federation - but who were actually FBI undercover agents, according to federal authorities.
Robert Patrick Hoffman II of Virginia Beach, Virginia, was arrested Thursday morning on an attempted espionage charge.
He appeared in federal court in Norfolk Thursday afternoon for an initial appearance, and the judge granted Hoffman's request for a court-appointed attorney, according to the U.S. Attorney's Office office for the Eastern District of Virginia.
Hoffman will remain in jail pending a detention hearing next Tuesday, the U.S. Attorney's Office said.
According to the indictment, on October 21 Hoffman tried to hand over national defense information to people he thought were representatives of the Russian government, including classified information "that revealed and pertained to methods to track U.S. submarines, including the technology and procedures required."
The government alleges Hoffman intended to harm the United States and give an advantage to the Russian Federation. The court documents do not state whether Hoffman sought any money for the materials.
A law enforcement official told CNN that Hoffman also was seeking money, but the official would not say how much.
The information was given to FBI agents who were conducting an undercover operation. The indictment does not charge the Russian government with wrongdoing.
Hoffman, 39, is described as a 20-year veteran of the U.S. Navy who was trained in cryptology and reached the rank of petty officer first class. He retired from active duty in November 2011. According to his biography released by the military, he served as a submarine warfare specialist.
Hoffman held security clearances, and prosecutors say he signed several documents during his tenure in the Navy promising not to divulge sensitive information.
A U.S. official said Hoffman's home in Virginia Beach was searched, as was a local storage facility he was renting. The official said there was nothing to indicate that Hoffman passed classified information to "actual Russians" any time in the past, but authorities still have to examine items taken from his home and storage locker.
If convicted, Hoffman could be sentenced to life in prison.
Chris Lawrence and Barbara Starr contributed to this report.
Yawn. This happens all of the time. There's nothing that can be given that isn't already out there for the public to see.
So you think he should get a free pass to break the law then?
Clear case of set-up, temptation. Look at Paula Broadwell and CIA chief Petrias.
Gen. David Petraeus and Broadwell engaged in an affair neither imagined would come to light. Surprise! Now Broadwell is a target for every foreign espionage group operating in the US. She is now the "spurned woman" since Petraeus admitted his affair to cover his own behind! Broadwell will absoultely be "contacted" sometime. Her knowledge may not include state secrets, but her knowledge is definately of high value. Be sure that her first contact will be from Israeli intelligence! Gen. David Petraeus is no longer a target for blackmail, but Paula is unprotected and extremely vulnarable. What she knows is very valuable. She may not "sell out" for money, but she can be threatened, and surely will be! Not today, but sometime in the near future!
For all of those who don't understand the term "Espionage" think back aways and remember John Walker, He's the guy that they didn't catch for several years along with his entire family. This man was a traitor in the worst way, his Treason caused the loss of a US Submarine, The USS SCORPION along with her entire crew, explain to their families why he shouldn't have been executed. I hear he is about due to be released....
The thought of another country making better sandwiches than us.........................
For those that think the FBI lures people in and then tricks and entraps them... Let's examine that for a minute. If I were an agent from a foreign country and I wanted information, what would I do? Yeah stupid... trick you, lure you in with cash and take the secrets... So, you swore to the People of the United States of America that you could be trusted. And you, well... We will see...
I wonder if you were in the military to serve the country or just for the GREEN U.S Dollars.
Mostly people aren't there for the money, because there isn't much of it.
I am really hoping that his justification for this isn't something along the lines of "with Obama in the White House, the country I loved is dead to me." I am tired of the Right mouthing off, but I'd hate to think they were starting to believe their own noise. I hope he just did it for money; that's bad enough.
If it was for MONEY, I would have personally paid him double or maybe 3 times more to get RUSSIAN's CLASSIFIED INFORMATION.
It's amazing how far people will go out of their way to foul up their life.
Life in prison...? why are we being so lenient?
I would execute on the spot!! And I'm not a RepubliCANT.
Greeeeat. If convicted, we can look forward to spending more tax dollars to keep him alive in prison for the remainder of his life...
Greenspan, Feith, Hykind, Chertoff, Corzine, Pollard and now Hoffman.....Anyone see a pattern here? Anyone? Anyone? PUT AMERICA FIRST.....OR GET THE HELL OUT!
Hear, hear! No room in our country for "dual citizens" who put the interests of a particular nation in the ME (that pretends to be our best friend but is anything but) before our own national interests. it's high time we voted in politicians that have the back bone to stand up for America and stop selling us out to these false friends! Put America first or get the hell out!!!
Hear, hear! No room in our country for "dual citizens" who put the interests of a particular nation in the ME (that pretends to be our best friend but is anything but) before our own national interests. it's high time we voted in politicians that have the back bone to stand up for America and stop selling us out to these false friends! Make sure they put America first or get the hell out!!!
To those that have doubt or just rhetoric against the FBI. Most of us Americans don't realize what war, starvation, torture and such things are. So they try to judge with an empty hand holding nothing but negative rhetoric. They need to look at history but most are too lazy to even think about it let alone read it. Nations LOSE and get DESTROYED by spies and espionage. Most people in America are weak and thoughtless anymore. They don't know what unity is. They would rather destroy and cause problems amongst us. It's much easier to destroy than to build. With words or actions.
Actually it wouldn't even matter if this man was innocent. Which he isn't I'm sure. A single man shouldn't impact the lives of the many, 350 million people +. People wouldn't even want to count to 1000. Let alone fathom what a 350 million number is.
That's why they don't understand how rich and rich are also. They just can't imagine the numbers. Until they starve someday. Or get hurt. People just aren't hungry enough or hungry at all yet. Get off your so called high horse. Use some reality not the bs in your fake daily lives. We are all just flesh and bone and can be destroyed just like we drop bombs on others. And yes you paid for the bombs to be dropped. So you are just as guilty as the nation that protects you and your own as you are the aggressor that destroys others so you don't get destroyed. So get off the high horse and protect your own. Words do hurt when it tears a nation apart. Divided we fall.
Thank you for your nonsensical ramblings. Please advise when your manifesto is published.
... the prescription's in the UCMJ.
That's why its life in prison and not death.
He's retired- actually Fleet Reserve. He is subject to and should be tried under the UCMJ Article 106A- and the death penalty can be administered.
We wont see him for about 50 years.
Off with his head!!!
Carve traitor in his head and send him to Russia!
And if you believe that is the correct course of action, you can go right along with him to Russia, because you belong with them. We dont "send messages" with corpses, that's what communist and terrorist ran countries do. Go back to playing your violent video games.
I wonder if Russia will grant him citizenship and then lobby for his pardon, like another case with a Navy spy.
I’m a military veteran; if he is found guilty they need to make an example out of him for all other would be double-agents out there, immediate execution. The penalty for treason, espionage, and abandoning your unit in combat are punishable by death per the USMJ. We (military/government) need to start serious execution guys like Bradley Manning and this clown. YOU can bet your last dollar the Russians would have killed someone of the same offense. America is among the weakest OPSEC and INFOSEC programs in the world–because we don’t have capitol punishment on the table.
Hear, Hear!
I, too, am a Navy Veteran and was and OT3 back in the 1970s. I tracked submarines and the equipment and duty stations where that equipment was located in my time frame are now out of commission and I believe if I am not mistaken declassified. I'm just wondering what kind of information he could have? Plus Tom, it's UCMJ (or it was in my day).
still is.
It's UCMJ, not USMJ. Uniform Code of Military Justice. I would think a vet would know that.
I'm with you. Too bad our country is becoming weaker by the moment.
Dumber, too.
You know, it is funny: we did that with Brian Regan, and it seems like people didn't get the message. Maybe it is time to turn up the volume.
As per usual, I will wait to see if he is found guilty by a jury of his peers before I have an opinion on his punishment.
Hang him from a yard arm. Keel Haul him under an aircraft carrier. FIre him out of a torpedo tube at 300'. Hell, jut shoot him and bill his parents for the bullet.
Execute him. Seriously, I do not believe in execution EXCEPT for treason and aiding the enemy. This, like Manning, is one of those cases.
Manning did nothing wrong. Apart from exposing gutless cowards who murdered innocent civilians for "our freedom."
Then why isn't he getting the protects afforded by the Military Whistleblower Protection Act? Oh yeah... Because he DID (allegedly) do something wrong. Go ahead, try to convince me he thought Wikileaks was part of his chain of command.
Or go on some diatribe about how the government is so corrupt he followed the only course of action available to him. Of course, then you have to ignore the fact that the same congressman that would have wound up looking at his evidence supported him after the leak.
Sorry but that argument doesn't wash. Manning had a temper tantrum and betrayed his nation if he is guilty of what he is accused of.
your hero doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
I have serious concerns about the legitimacy of these FBI sting operations. I mean, would this guy ever have actually gone out and given this information to actual Russians? Probably not. But the Feds manipulate people into situations where they feel pressured to go along with the agents' story, whether they're posing as Russians or al-Qaeda or a crime boss, these sort of Mr. Big stings trick people into doing things they'd never actually do, facilitating and encouraging criminal behaviour and then *bam* they spring the trap. Most of the time the target is just a patsy and the whole thing is set up by the FBI for reasons of their own, to rile up fears in the population and to create a narrative for the public.
Are you really that naive?
Why not? You certainly are.
Sorry, the FBI setting up a traitor....... Remember, you can't rape the willing!
I agree. If he wasn't already willing or contemplating it, the FBI would never have gotten very far in their investigation. His morals and ethics were already compromised.
Absolutely right you are, Smokey and doabitofhomework.
Two problems with your theory. 1. if the FBI initiates the contact and encourages him to break the law, that is called entrapment and the case gets thrown out. 2. When you are given access to classified information you are also briefed on what to do if contacted by foreign intelligence.
Without commenting on the merits of this particular case............................The FBI has a long history of straw men and dubious arrests that do not stand up. They seem more interested in building up their public image than anything else.
Building up an image of getting cases thrown out of court for entrapment would hardly be a positive.
I am betting he was observed trying to contact a Russian national.....more than likely at their embassy. Then the FBI played him. If found guilty I hope they throw him in the same cell with that dirt bag Pollard until they both rot.
You are a total idiot. You who are not my friend should be deported to Russia.
That would be entrapment. It is illegal. If the FBI did that sort of thing, they would never get a conviction from it.
You don't stand a chance when your own people turn against you...
Aren't we just brilliant? The guy is under arrest and detention. He is an "accused." How many of you here remember that an "accused" person is NOT guilty until proven so in a court of law?
I have to wonder how many Americans would cheerfully participate in lynch mobs or vigilantism. It is alarming that so many Americans no longer believe in the rule of law. Not one is saying "if he's convicted, he should get" such and such a punishment. They're saying he should get punishment, and some depictions are rather graphic. Are there any people like that on our police forces? Man, I hope not.
The guy has a right to a trial, you know. Can't any of you wait until he gets convicted before mouthing off? Every time there is a highly-publicized criminal trial, I find bunches of people who have already passed judgment. I'd hate to think what they'd do if selected for the jury. "Innocent until proven guilty" is one of our most precious attributes in America. It is the only thing standing between YOU and a kangaroo court some day. It is NOT merely a thing that "those dirty liberals" say. It is the law of the land. But too many Americans don't seem to want that law any more.
No wonder America is getting loony at the fringes.
Only problem with that wonderful theory is the charges brought up against him are not like we don't know if he tried to pass critical information that risks the safety of an entire fleet of submarines and their crew, it is just figuring out the extent of his intentions. Which by the way, based on the charges are very, very serious. As far as innocent, of course he deserves his day in court and all, but it won't be to prove his innocence, it will be to determine just how guilty he is.
A lynch mob is something of the past and it was ignorance that brought that mob together and for stupid reasons such as racism, etc. This has virtually nothing to do with that whatsoever. This is a serious breach of security. The agents posing as Russians have willful intent to hold against this guy. The information he provided them was factually damaging information to the security of the U.S.
Nice to sound all politically correct and all, but like Manning, the evidence is overwhelming... but yes, we can play like he did nothing wrong and he deserves a fair and impartial trial, etc. If he is convicted...he stands to be in prision for the rest of his life so what he did was a bit more than rob a candy store.
Well if some people on the internet think the evidence is overwhelming then there's no real need for a trial at all. As stated in "United States v. People I Don't Like," Chief Justice That Guy wrote:
"Clearly, the standard for guilt or innocence must be whether or not some dudes posting on an internet forum think the guy is guilty based on how 'overwhelming' the evidence is perceived to be by said dudes. As such, the majority finds that People I Don't Like should be strung up, or possibly shot because hanging is too good for them."
Any information about a sub could bring harm to the fleet. Then again, I don't expect morons to understand that.
Perhaps the people calling for his execution before he's even been tried would feel more comfortable in the Russian Federation, where it seems "due process" and "presumed innocence" aren't as important as making a statement.
Wow, what a d0uchebag.
The traitor need be killed is all whot I want to say.
I have no use for traitors as this is by far the worst and lowest a human being can go is to sell out his country for money. Anyone doing this should spend the rest of their life in military prison with no chance of ever seeing the light of day. Execution is too damn easy and quick with no suffering or chance for remorse.
This date is for honoring American heroes.
Like FDR, who orchestrated Pearl Harbor.
Poor bas tard got caught. It's too bad the FBI doesn't investigate the U.S. Congress, they sell their country out everyday!
Why don't you go away permanently.
Why? Because he said something relevant?
Such good, meek little clover d0ucheb@gs, living in fear and subsisting on bullsh!t.
Selling out your brothers... enjoy Hell, bro.
Yep... big suck for him! Shoot him, bill Jane Fonda form the shell.
Hardly an enjoyable experience – after all, it's crammed to the hilt with politicians.
walk the plank!
Hang him by the neck, until he is dead, dead, Dead.
Yes. Hang him until the dogs run around the street with his entrails.
You two need to get laid. Not more often – just laid. Period.
'Course you can always continue to beat-off to Soldier of Fortune.
I am curious about how he contacted what he thought was an agent for the Russian Federation. Also if what he knew was so classified, and sensitive to our submarine security, there must be many retired navy service members who know the same stuff, it is hard to believe there are so many Americans walking around out there with this information and no one has been contacted by a real Russian Federation agent or a Chinese agent and been coerced or bribed into revealing this stuff. A significant amount of money could be a powerful incentive as I doubt a military pension is really enough to retire and live the good life...
Not everyone is as willing to give up morality for money.
I don't talk about what I did in the classified world.
Just claiming you are privy to classified info makes your comment very sloppy and irresponsible. Your ID is trackable with your activity on the internet. You are either very stupid or lying.
By all means, keep boasting of your ignorance.
Come on Dave, politicians and military officials admit daily they know classified info on international tv. I have friends that get deployed and can say nothing but..."classified" when I ask about some details. Get real
The guy is clearly in a clue-free zone, which doesn't stop him from having his opinions.
Since Democrats don't have any morality, selling out America is easy for them.
Joseph, welcome to the real world. The NDAs people sign don't say anything about political affiliation, and neither do the laws.
What happens in a lot of these cases is the person makes a very clumsly approach to the foreign government/embassy/etc. The other side calls our side and chides us for our sloppy attempt to lure out one of their agents. We take that information and then approach the traitor ourselves.
Some of us put patriotism and the safety of their fellow Americans over financial gain. Not everyone believes in Congressional morality. That would probably be why there are so few people of the idle rich class who serve in the military. We put our country and its people above everything else.
A life sentence is not a strong enough deterrent for treason. If found guilty he should be taken out back and immediately be given a lethal injection of a copper jacketed .45 to the back of the head.
He would have been better off had he tried to sell it to Israel.
You're an idiot Lewy
He definitely wouldn't be the first.
The "sub espionage' man is accused of handing over "sub secrets" according to CNN. Can he also be accused of 'sub subverting' ?
"Sub Version"
I mean RUSSIA? This isn't the cold war.
What's your point?
Don't kid yourself. The Russians and Chinese have been developing new attack subs and would pay greatly for this technology.
What technology? Do American subs fly? If I remember correctly Russian subs of the soviet era were so much more advanced than American subs that they didn't even bother about creating a surface fleet to protect them.
The whole point of subs is to be sneaky. We don't want people telling other nations how to find them, or how to duplicate our levels of sneaky. Did you even read the article?
If convicted, hang him. You do not un-swear your oath when you leave the service.
Well, at least he is not yet another traitorous Israeli/American spy.
Stop with antisemitism
Dumping on Israel isn't anti-semitism any more than dumping on America is anti-freedom.
"Detail...Ready...Aim...Fire
E6 after 20 years? I made that in 8 years. Sounds like a high achiever.!
He probably wasn't a brown noser.
Good for you. Have a cookie.
The FBI should be ashamed to have setup this poor guy!
He set himself up!!!!! He should spend the rest of his miserable traitor of a life in Leavenworth.
If it's not the FBI agent then he would have contacted the right people.
Why? So a real Russian spy could contact him instead?
The FBI has no concept of shame.
I, Boris, have descendents in Ukraine and Russia. I served in the Navy for 9 years before separating with an injury. I would never have sold secret info to anyone, Canadians, Brazialians,or even Russians. This cat thought never developed the sense of pride that most of us here have of our service and our country. Life in prison is a fair sentence. Maybe he'll learn to appreciate all we've done for the next 40 years behind cold bars. He's safe from my fists behind bars, and he should appreciate that.
Is it not safe to say that in situations such as these, there is no level of rehabilitation that can restore what he did. Everyone makes mistakes, but when a mistake is to purposely, and I stress the word "purposely," to sell national secrets, this is nothing short of domestic terrorism. We should not even consider trying to teach him a lesson; the country should be teaching its citizens that our national security will not be threatened by foreign or domestic terrorists. A bottom line, a life sentence is not strong enough and will not serve as a deterrent for future activities.
I'm from a state with no death penalty, but I can understand your point of view. If you want to terminate him, I won't complain. Maybe we should set up an iternment camp to throw all his family into. That would deter some folks who are considering selling secrets.
I can't imagine we are still bragging about death penalty in this so-called world of enlightenment. That's so barbaric and uncivilized in nature.
"I'm from a state with no death penalty,"
I suspect he will face a military tribunal. They can hang him by the balls if they want to, and they may want to.
That's interesting. Why? Typically these guys go to federal court if they are out of the military, particularly since it is the FBI that did the investigation and made the arrest. Manning is sort of a special case because he is still in uniform.
He's not out of the military. He's between 20 and 30 years- in the Fleet Reserve. And even so, because of the nature of the crime, if he were retired, he would still be subject to the UCMJ. http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj.htm#802.%20ART.%202.%20PERSONS%20SUBJECT%20TO%20THIS%20CHAPTER shows he is subject to teh UCMJ, the next page linked shows Article 106A which carried the death penalty.
Boris, this is you mama, mama Russka. Boris...why you no come home? Your uncle Leonid in hospital with the night terrors. Your sister Ileanna, she drop out of polyteknik...oh Boris bring you big fists back home. Why you waste time playing checkers in the park?
Grand Theft Auto?
You are very funny – you really made my Friday.
As a Navy Vet I'm ashamed of this man...So many benefits out there for us vets and this guy tries to screw over his own country, unbelievable. Well have fun in prison man, hope it was worth it!
This is a sad story. A career navy member, a subber, something to be proud of willing to throw everything away for money. Did he hate America that much to sell information that would compromise his fellow seamen. Put him away until he is old and gray so he can't hurt his country in any way.
"Did he hate America that much to sell information that would compromise his fellow seamen." I actually hope it was money instead of ideology.
MONEY!....MONEY changes everything! :(
Why the Russians??? they haven,t been on the Axis of Evil radar for decades...
They still want to be. Russia still has the ability to develop and use high tech equipment for their own use or sell to others. China would love to come by such information
Bye bye, retirement pension. Bye bye, freedom. And he didn't even get a dime out of what he was trying to do. I would like to say that he is at least saving the taxpayers money by forfeiting his pension but the cost of incarceration cancels out the savings.
Yeah, well we should save ourselves the cost of incarceration, too. Convicted traitors should be propped up against a brick wall and shot. Period.
Don't throw stone so early. Do you believe in America and the legal system here? If not and you want to line him up and shoot him then it is time you move to China or Iran where they do that and live where your wishes will come true.
"Don't throw stone so early. Do you believe in America and the legal system here?" Be fair; he DID say "convicted."
While I agree whole heartedly that this guy is a traitor and deserves everything he is getting, it kinda disturbs me just how many of you are so up in arms about killing him in such violent fashions. What are we, terrorists now? Cutting off peoples heads? The guillotine, seriously? Killing is not that easy people, get off your Call of Duty video games and learn what the world is really like. I have been to Afghanistan and seen people die, and I would not wish that on anyone. Yes, in some cases people deserve the death penalty, I am not arguing that, but what right do YOU have to say he should die in the most violent way possible? That is the court's decision. I guess what I am trying to say is this; you should REALLY take a look at yourself if the first thing that comes in your mind is this guys head falling into a basket. All that being said, this traitor earned himself Leavenworth.
One of the reader suggested that we should not be so quick to consider violence for this man, or better yet, the death penalty for him. I had be quick to point out that this man was selfishly putting every American life at risk by potentially selling national secrets to what he perceived to be, a foreign country. Sabotaging your fellow Americans, every American simultaneously, especially by a veteran is unthinkable. If he is found guilty, and there is absolutely no chance of this being a misunderstanding, he needs to be executed. This level of national treason should not go with a life sentence. Life sentences are simply not severe enough.
WE are not at war, execution of off the table. Life in Prison is the most we can hope for.
This country is at war...yes, now specifically with this one individual person, but there is a parallel with selling secrets to foreign countries (or think that you are selling secrets to foreign countries). The death penalty should be on the table when it comes to discussing national security. This man was potentially selling your security and the security of everyone you know and love. Now do you see?
I am not at all arguing your point, Jim. I absolutely understand the extent of what this man did. And you may even be right, that the best solution would be the death penalty. What I am trying to say is most of these uneducated individuals spouting off ramblings like "Chop off his head and feed it to pirhannas, lolz". Everyone should look at the whole thing a little deeper, like you yourself have seemed to do, before deciding that it is okay to take someones lie. And even then, we should be responsible ABOUT the decision to take a life. This nonsense about guillotines and putting him against a brickwall and a firing squad is ridiculous. This isn't France in the Dark Ages, nor are we Nazi Germany, and to suggest what some of these folks are suggesting makes us no better than the russian spies this shipmate thought he was selling plans to. Like I said, my only argument was that we take the idea of the death penalty seriously. Whether he is a traitor or not, we are still supposed to be professionals (the military).
The difference between Bradley Manning and this guy is that Manning is a humanitarian and an American hero whereas this guy is a capitalist and an American traitor. Manning could be any one of us. It's people like this ex sailor who give people like Manning a bad name.
...to BlackPowerHour....You are confusing patriotism with selfish self importance. Bradley Manning is a traitor, punk and low life. One person cannot take it upon himself to decide that something is wrong and disclose "Secretes" to others. Obviously you agree with him but what if something you believe in is compromised by someone else who doesn't believe in it. There are rules to guide us all or otherwise there would be anarchy. If you have another opinion you should protest or do something that would not harm others just to further your viewpoint.
Manning had a tiff with his boyfriend and tried to take it out on the entire country. He is no patriot. He released info that put our troops lives in danger. Now he will never see the light of day.
Manning and Hoffman did the same thing, they broke their sworn oath and loyalty to the USA. They are both traitors and both deserve the same sentance, life at hard labor in a Federal Prison.
How can you tell that Manning is a humanitarian? I have never punched a woman and I have never reached for a rifle during an argument. I have never flipped a table in a temper tantrum. Do I not get to be a humanitarian anymore under these new rules?
Clearly, manning is not a patriot. If he was, he would have followed the rules under the Military Whistleblower Protection Act, and people could call him "hero" or "patriot" with a straight face. Instead, he allegedly chose to break the law. Like Hoffman is also alleged to have done.
Manning betrayed his oath and should ace the firing squad.
"Manning is a humanitarian " Let's agree he was an idealist at least. He thought he was doing the right thing when he dishonored himself and shamed his country. He knew he'd probably be shot and he was very brave. But he was wrong.
I can't really accept that. Why would an idealist intentionally break the law when there was a legal option that would probably have worked better AND given him complete immunity to prosecution or retribution?
Words cannot describe how disappointed I am!! As a mother of a submariner....how dare he put his fellow shipmates at harm. A sentence of LIFE in federal prison ... and loosing his pension!! Maybe his family will have no means of support, but he should of thought of that when he committed the crime.
Who serves for 20 years and only ranks E4. I made E4 in 6 months... 20 years at E4 is not normal.
CW – E4 in the US Navy is Petty Officer Third. He was E6 as Petty Officer First Class. Still given his critical rate I would expect him to be at least E7 (Chief) or possibly higher. Also unless the Navy rating system has radically changed since I was in during Vietnam you could not have made E4 in six months....six months from when?
Petty Officer First Class is E-6 in the Navy. Not sure which branch you served in but I am serving in the Army and know that information.
Petty Officer First Class is a rank of E6.
"..and reached the rank of petty officer first class."
In today's Navy E-4(Petty Officer 3rd Class) is easily achieved at 6 months of service if you serve in certain ratings especially those of submarine designation. A 20 year E-6 in the submarine community is often considered a Slacker. Most submariners are working toward E-7 by their 10 year mark.
It may have changed, but when I was in 30 years ago, critical ratings like nuc and crypto got quick advancement. As a nuc I was an E-3 automatically upon finishing boot and E-4 automatically upon finishing A-school. That's 3-4 months (maybe as much as 6 depending on the A-school length) to reach 3rd class PO. Most can then take the E-5 test by 18 months in and so on. Most nucs who stay in make Senior Chief before they hit 20 and I knew several Master Chief nucs who had only 10 years in the service. That's why it makes me wonder what this guy was doing wrong to only be an E-6 after 20 years.
You're not really in the Navy nor have you ever been. Your lack of knowledge is very telling.
Have a Nice 40 years sailor.
chip off the old block!!
Isn't this a hanging offense?
no I am making a motion for the chipper shredder
Both are good ideas, I say you take him down to as deep as the sub will go and launch him out a torpedo tube.
Not likely. I suspect he gets charged with espionage, but I dont think they can stick him with treason. Look at Ames, Walker, and company, all charged with espionage.
Yeah, they plea bargained. Remember about Brian P. Regan. He never actually sold anything, and the government was going to go for the death penalty.
(Because he didn't have anything to bargain with - in the case of Pollard, Ames, Hannssen, etc we wanted to know what they had sold.)
Speaking of Walker, did any of you know that he has been released from Leavenworth? Michael that is.
Yeah, that was over a decade ago, I think.
this guy is why we make chipper shredders in America.
I would have thought this would fall under treason, which carries the death penalty.
only if it were a war situation
Politicians betray the country on a daily basis, profit handsomly but get rewarded, not tried.
If you have evidence, tell someone. Keeping it secret isn't helping anyone.
Note to subersies: whoever you easily contact is probbly the fbi.
If found guilty.... Life without the possibility of parole.
He committed an act of treason. That's a death season
The charge is attempted espionage not actual treason. Even if it was full blown treason they wouldn't give him the death sentence. Aldrich Ames gave up information that compromised many of our soviet assets – doing real harm to our espionage efforts int he cold war. He only got life. He's still rotting in a prison somewhere in PA. Interestingly enough, the soviets killed most of the assets he gave up.
Wrong, he'll get parole, just like walker did.
John Walker is still in federal prison, and will probably be there until the end of May, 2015. Of course, he has stage 4 cancer so he may not live that long.
Michael was released a long time ago as expected.
Fast trial followed by quick hanging sounds right for this one.
Let this be a lesson to you: When you try to sell intelligence secrets on the internet, BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU!
In this case, who cares you P.O.S. When it comes to the safety and security of my country, I don't give a crap what big brother does. Not to mention, if you are doing nothing wrong, then you have nothing to hide.
It's quite funny just how the Feds "always" get their man. Even if this guy did succeed in giving so-called "secrets" to the Russians, just how much harm can the Russians do anyway? Very little, I presume but the right-wing fanatics will try to scare us over this just the same!
You obviously know nothing about submarine and weapon technology to make a statement like that.
The Russians may not have been the "harm". They may have traded it to someone who did have "harm" in mind. The Russians know something of value when they see it. If he is guilty, I hope they hang him or at the very least throw him in the same cell with Pollard until they both rot.
Let's hope he gets a very "loving" cellmate :)
How could this have anything to do with right or left. This guy, if proven guilty, intended to sell US Navy information that could harm our men/women who serve on submarines. Quit with the left/right crap, there is enough of that going around.
Agreed. Politicizing this devalues the very real fact that lives were endangered by this man's lack of moral courage.
Having been a Sonar Tech in the Navy, I can tell you anti-submarine warfare is big-time stuff when it comes to Russian A.K.A. Soviet ballistic missile subs sneaking around American coasts. Keeping our boats undetected keeps your back covered. Missiles launched mere hundreds of miles away arrive in minutes. The Navy likes to keep that from being a possibility, for good reason.
Just what kind of fools paradise do you live in, anyway? Russians can't do anything with it? What are you, stupid or something?
Oh yeah always. Where is DB Cooper being held again?
Remember that Pollard sold classified material to Israel. How is anyone going to scare us with that?
Classified material isn't stamped "SECRET UNLESS YOU NEED A FEW BUCKS". You protect classified material.
Look you idiot, the feds are not to blame in this so quit trying to blame them for anything. They are doing their job and did a good job.
When I was "poking holes" in the ocean during the Cold War there weren't any CT's assigned to the boats. They would ride along as guests when we did a Med or Northern Run. We always thought they were shady. Just like those traitors the Walkers, who I believe are still locked up. Those traitor dogs actually gave away valuable info – they should have both been shot years ago. A Gang – Fast Attack – 1979 to 1984
Ain't no slack in fast attack! Fry the dirt bag.
As a CTT I find that ignorant especially from a fellow sailor. CT's are Direct Support to submarines all the time. I am an accomplished CTT1(SW/IDW) in only 6 years so far and I can tell you we are not shady and are normal people. There will always be bad apples in every facet of life, don't blame the rating badge on the sleeve. As a matter of fact most Crippies ar ethe LEAST likely to get into trouble statistically and this guy obviously felt wronged and had a bone to pick, most likely because he felt screwed over because he never made Chief or was passed over on other boards... some people are crazy like that.
Jason dude, I was joking about the "shady" part. We were always messing with the CT's.
I have to say I took the "shady" comment as a joke. My husband was an ET on a fast attack and they caught a lot of "squirrel" crap.
Walker is experiencing a fate worse than death. He is not only in solitary, he has zero access to any form of contact with humans. No tv, radio, music. The guards aren't even allowed to speak to him unless absolutely necessary. Imagine an environment where the only person you can hear is yourself.
Get your facts straight moron. Walker was released several years ago. It was a very quite release for obvious reasons.
Speaking of morons, I hope you realize there were multiple Walkers in the Walker spy ring. The ringleader is still in prison.
Michael was released, Arthur is still in, or was as of 2010 at least.
Bring back the gulliotine.
Hang the traitor. Round up his family and throw them in jail. Let them watch him die. Or we can bring back the Gulliotine.
Do we have to argue about him being a hero and a patriot like Bradley Manning, or is that only if you hit women, break your oath and the law?
Betcha a buck that when the investigation is completed it will turn out that the end purchasers of whatever he was peddling were North Koreans or mainland Chinese, although with the problems so many countries are having with their sub fleets it could be most anybody, even Columbia's Narco Navy.
It clearly says he thought they were russians.
I will always find it difficult to understand how it is that this great country of ours could have traitors such as this. Thankfully, this rat has been caught.
Does it bother anyone else that the FBI regularly sets up entrapment cases with all of our veterans?
Not with veterans trying to sell national secrets I don't. And I am one.
You're a national secret? Not anymore!
no. traitors should be caught and executed. doesn't bother me a bit as i am a 30 year navy vet.
This isn't entrapment, stop fooling yourself. If you know you're about to break the law don't do it. It doesn't matter whether you're enticed by a real enemy agent or a domestic agent in disguise.
Why is that a problem? please enlighten us...
No.
I think the only one who's bothered is you. Veterans are not immune to this type of activity, just because they served. In fact, they are the ones who hold the secrets, so why wouldn't you monitor them? By the way, I'm a veteran.
All of you morons who posted under me either have never served in the military, or are simply reactionary to this type of entrapment injustice. First of all, there are no "secrets." There are safeguards and measures that are in place to never place enough power in the hands of even a former veteran. Have you ever heard of "new-day PUs?" If you haven't then you are all dolts and shouldn't comment here. Leave it grown ups..
Entrapments such as those employed by security agencies to save this country are not effective if you are not a traitor or a criminal at heart.
"Entrapment"?? WOW!! You Have Got To Be Kidding!!! But, in case you're not, Let Me Tell You Something..!! There isn't enough tea in China to get me to betray my country, Pal!! No Way! No How!! And I think it's ridiculous to assert that ANY American servicemember could be "entrapped" into becoming a Traitor!! THAT, is a line that CANNOT EVER be crossed – even if one is offered everything he or she could ever desire!! Could you be "entrapped" into murdering your family??!! This TRAITOR turned upon his shipmates!!! He betrayed sworn allegiances to his country!! He became an ENEMY!! Personally, I think he should be shot! But! You know what?!! I'm glad he'll do life in Leavenworth!! Because I know it will be HARRRRRRRD Time!
Well Said!!!
Who else is going to sell military secrets other than people who have been in the military?
People who have access to that kind of info as in Government Civilians or Govie Contractors or high profile people who never served but play a role in the DoD... The military is a small portion of the DoD as a whole.
Mistresses and escorts.
Pollard was not in the mlitary, for one. Nozette, for another. Aldrich Ames, et al
Yeah, except for (allegedly) Manning and Walker, the most damaging spies have been the CIA or FBI or State.
It has happened many times with civilian contractors.
I always get a kick out of stupid people. For those who really are talking out their asses, Entrapment means that the idea to commit the crime was established by agent or officials. If this person contacted them, then no entrapment can have occured. And for the record, anyone who wore the uniform and then betrays his country and comrades in arms is a traitor. Lucky for him we are not in a formally declared war, which has only one penalty when the nation is engaged in war, but still, take him out and publicly hang him.
Not at all.
What bothers me is that just once I would like to hear a story about how they stop someone who wasn't enticed by an FBI agent to do these types of things. He is a traitor either way - whether entrapped or not, so no sympathy for him. But, I do have to wonder if the terrorist threat is a little overhyped considering the ONLY plots that have been stopped involved the FBI from day one. I guess you gotta keep the threat level high if you want to justify your funding level ...
No one is calling him a terrorist. This doesn't have anything to do with terrorism. The FBI has always been responsible for counter espionage.
First I've heard about it. Why would the FBI be going after our veterans?
Nope! Fast attack sailor for 17 years.
No moron, read the article, it plainly states 20 yr veteran.
Hang him high!!!!!!!!!!!
"The indictment does not charge the Russian government with wrongdoing." It looks like "law enforcement" main occupation is to manufacture crime and lock people up. No wonder there are more prison population in US than anywhere else in the world. More often than not these "criminals" are enticed with money or other things to commit crime they may not have any intention of committing.
Sorry this isn't entrapment. Who cares about what he was offered by these agents? He knew that divulging these kind of things was illegal. If the FBI had forced him to break the law then it would be a different story.
so because a woman dresses nice.....thats enticing a rapist? And its HER fault???? Pencils misspell words? This guy should be shot at sunrise not told he was baited into this....
Az you certainly are one. I served in the US Navy honorably for six years.
Hey, az, could the "government entice [you] with money or other things to commit" treason?? How exactly does something like that work eh?? Could law enforcement entrap you into murdering your family?? How easy of a criminal are you?? How little will you take in exchange for your morals, character and dignity??
This isn't some sort of misdemeanor!! This is treason. Wiki/Google it.
Yeah, I'm sure you were right. There was an FBI agent whispering in his ear every night trying to subconsciously convince Hoffman to do this.
Wake up. The FBI clearly got a tip one way or another about what Hoffman was up to. Remember that entrapment rules are pretty strict. The FBI doesn't want to throw a case away because they broke the law.
I saw the Craig's List ad "Russian Spy Needed" and wondered what that was all about...
No one is that dumb - everyone is under constant surveillance. Similar to the Shoe and Underwear bombers - Likely a Distracting Black Operation.
Anchor envy weighs-heavy upon a lifer. E-7 CT at 20 is an embarrassment.
I wondered at that. Isn't CT the same as nucs, as far as advancement goes? It's a critical rating just like nuc, or was when I was a nuc. So he should have finished boot as an E-3, A school as an E-4 and that's less than a year in service. How could he then only get to E-6 over the next 19 years unless he had some really horrendous evals or just failed at testing?
Deep six this one...
Send this slimy POS to the bottom of the sea and do it now.
I wonder what HIS crush depth is?
Just throwing this out there, but his "biography states he was a submarine warfare specialist". It's actaully a requirement now by the time you are a second class petty officer to earn your dolphins or wings. I have my Air Warfare Specialist wings because I had to get them to be able to advance.
That being said, he should be tried for treason. But he at a minimum spend the rest of his life in Levenworth.
So?
Actually, Dolphins are required for everyone who steps onto a Boat. If you are a first-time qual (or NUB as we called them) you have 90 days to complete the required training and earn your Dolphins. 90 days is not a lot of time to learn all of that material, and people often fall behind schedule and become delinquent (DINK) and will lose priviledges until they are qualified.
There may be requirements now for advancement in certain rates, but there are rates that do not (cannot) qualify for Warfare insignias simply because they are not in a Warfare-serving rate, Some Yeoman, Storekeepers and Corpsmen are not assigned Warafre commands, and cannot qualify for SW, ASW or SS.
Just saying...
Thank you for the clarification Kris. My rate (AD) did require me to have them to be eligible to take the first class exam. E-4's were encouraged to but not required. It used to be worth points on the exam, now that it's a requirement it's not worth anything. My point was the media was trying to make it sound like he had these super secrets of sub warfare that nobody else posesses when the truth is most sailors on subs have them.
Everyone assigned to a boat, including the yeoman, the cooks, the independent duty hospital corpsman, the storekeepers and the chop, have to earn their dolphins. All of them. Anyone assigned to a skimmer can earn their ESWS, and if they want to advance, they will. When I left AD it wasn't yet required- that may or may not have changed.
IF, found gulty, he needs to face the same penalty as the Rosenbergs.
Duh, it was intend because he was caught BEFORE he could do it. It's amazing how we bash our own country to strange reasons. Great job catching this traitor!
Loose lips sink ships..yes even submarines.
Life in Prison for intent. Now THATS justice. Gotta love America
attempted treason .. not intent to ... the life in prison is a bit hard .. he should get prison as long as he knows information that is potential damaging if disclosed. I guess whatever he knew probably will be obsolete in 20-30 years. So, that's what he should get
He should be shot.
yeah . another brain dead flag worshiper ... are you aware that the guy is smarter than you are or ever will possibly l be ?
Oh yeah, you can totally tell how smart he is, trying to sell secrets to the FBI. I am glad I am not that smart.
yeah .... all terrorists and traitors since 9/11 have been caught selling fake stuff provided by the sting .. yeah. .. need some stories to justifies spending $B on police state system and u suck it up sucker
Sorry man, I don't speak lunatic. I'll check to see if Babel Fish has a translation algorithm or ask Bobcat Goldtwait if he can translate your gibberish.
there is no translator machine or professional that can translate from English to BrainDeadLanguage for braindead individuals of your kind. Not your fault dude. take it easy u were bron stupid .. one day retire, and be fed apple puree until the day the cat resident at the mental facility for elderly pedophiles where you are housed, will come at the feet of your bed, purr and pee on your bed,, then live giving a sign to the local nurse it's time to clean your bed .. your corpse is no longer needed
Oh sorry, you misunderstood. We need a translator from Street Person Mumbling to English.
I didn't mean to confuse you more.
huh? leave the other half of your wit in the bar again?
You no doubt did not spend time in the military. Had you done so you would think spiders were crawling up your back after learning what this guy did, even though it was intent and he got caught. Had that info gotten into Russian hands, or any other hands, the people in our submarines would be in more danger than they currently experience. You should be grateful you can complain about the government and the military and live to complain another day.
Gotta love, you're, um, well... I guess you're the reason why I defend this great nation, so people like you can spout nonsense with naivete. Actually, it's rather a backhanded compliment that you could be so woefully ignorant of the threat this man's intended betrayal posed to those defending our nation, and, yes, your ability to chew cud and spew nonsense. Go back to the mall... we've got your back.
I suppose you all would buy the "jump to conclusions" mat as well. "Hey its in the news. We MUST have the whole story". It is likely this jackball would have NO clue how to contact Russians spies. And to top it off he was probably led to get the info by the FBI agents. And just what is this "sensitive" information, half the confidential and secret info we have is known by the russians, we have to worry about top secret info, not many enlisted men know anything earth shattering . trust Me..I DID SERVE IN THE MILITARY. AND MY SKIN DOES CRAWL WHEN I SEE THE ABUSE OUR GOVT PUTS TO OUR CITIZENS IN THE NAME OF HOMELAND SECURITY.
From your posting I can see you may have been in the military but you never served on a submarine. Also, Walker had enlisted Sailors passing him information.
Well Mr Hoffman......get your bunghole ready it is going to see a lot of use very soon....
While you see this in papers, ask about the Navy Enlistment Review Board ERB... 2946 sailors lost their jobs illegally and not a peep about it in any news media...
This is the kind of thing that justifies the sometimes questionable practices the fbi uses.
Fkin traitor , git some!
Put him in a cell with Manning and then don't feed them.
Kudos for great under cover work! It is hard enough to protect our men and women of armed forces from out side enemies, but from someone on the inside!! If he gets life in prisin, he ie getting off too easy.
Life in prison? He should be shot for espionage if found guilty. Clearly his intent was to do harm to the US. I was a submariner so it causes me an even greater degree of anger knowing that a fellow silent service shipmate would do something like this.
Were do you get off listing the name of the ships ? Have you got a once of common sense ? It is dangerous for the men on those ships and i for one do not like it, my grandson is on one of those ships ! ! !
i looked 3 times and could not find ship names. that said, what would it matter? you are a whiner
what? the names of ships and subs are in the public eye already....
Not to worry – your grandson will not be put at risk, even if they had listed boat's names. Enemies of the USA already have that publicly-available information, but gain little advantage in that.
That said, it is a dangerous occupation, so thank you for the service provided by your family.
The list of all navy ships are available to the public on the Navy's official website. They're not classified in any way. Aspects like AOR and Ao can be, but knowing the name of a ship will not put anyone's family member in danger.
that scared me too.
they're pretty sneaky
Put him in a hole. And we should tell where our subs are at. It is the most elite force in the world and we would know that they where there long before us. Can't be touched.
crypto techs have a very tight advancement program. As one of the service's smaller programs there are limits to advancement. As a Naval Officer I tried every legal way possible to get several CT's who worked for me advanced. They were outstanding sailors and the advancement multiples were intentionally high to balance the needs of the Navy. I credit each of the enlisted personnel who worked for me with my promotions and I tried to ensure to the extent possible that they each got appropriately recognized. 20 years later and I still remember the names of each one! Oustanding sailors!
20 years and never made Chief? I bet there was some resentment there...
maybe he was wearing red
Hey Hummm, pick your rate, pick your fate. I agree that a CT should have made Chief before 20, but not all rates have the multiples and it sure as heck has nothing to do with espionage. The guy in this story was a dog, but it has nothing to do with rank....remember CWO4 Walker?? He was a Chief before he was Warrant. I do hope they hang him high.
I am a 20 year retired Hull Technician, I am proud to say that I am one of the last of the E5 retirees. Although I never made E6, I am proud to say that I never kissed ass or got into any trouble during my time in the US Navy 1991 – 2011, so think about that one Hmmm.
Twenty years and retired an E5. Did you pee in somebody's wheaties? Thank you for your service. Fair winds and following seas.
RetiredVet, BZ to you. The true leaders in Naval service, past or present, honor the commitment of all that have served honorably and continue to remain true to the core values of our great Navy, whether they are retired or active.
20 year retired turd chaser....and you couldn't make E-6?
Idiot...just glad this doesn't happen more (or at least that we the public know about)
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