By Adam Levine, CNN
Turkey's leadership took on a much more strident tone on Sunday, calling the downing of its military jet by Syria an "act of aggression" and invoking its right to consult with other NATO nations. That call to meet has raised the question of whether other nations, including the United States, would be compelled to strike back on Turkey's behalf.
Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu has spoken with U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, the foreign ministers of the United States, the United Kingdom, France, Russia and Iran, and European Union foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton since the incident, spokesman Selcuk Unal told CNN Saturday.
British Foreign Minister William Hague Sunday called the incident "outrageous" and said he condemned it wholeheartedly."
"The Assad regime should not make the mistake of believing that it can act with impunity. It will be held to account for its behavior," Hague said of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.
The top American military official, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Martin Dempsey, called his Turkish counterpart this weekend, a U.S. official told CNN's Barbara Starr.
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton spoke with her Turkish counterpart, as well. In a statement issued Sunday she called the incident a "brazen and unacceptable act in the strongest possible terms."
NATO members will be meeting this Tuesday in Belgium to discuss the incident, at the request of Turkish officials, according to NATO spokeswoman Oana Lungescu.
The meeting, or "consultations," is one Turkey called under Article 4 of the NATO treaty, Lungescu said in an e-mail to CNN. Turkey is expected to make a presentation about the plane incident.
"Under Article 4, any ally can request consultations whenever, in the opinion of any of them, their territorial integrity, political independence or security is threatened," she wrote.
With the consultations, there is a chance Turkey will demand a collective military response. The notion comes from what is known as Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's Washington Treaty, which states that should a member nation - which Turkey is - be attacked, other NATO members are compelled in a collective act of self-defense "such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area."
Article 5 has been invoked just once since NATO's founding, the military response to 9/11.
In this incident, after restrained comments early on, Turkey has issued much angrier comments as details became known. On Sunday, Turkey's foreign minister said the country will act "decisively" within international law and refuted Syria's contention that the plane was shot down because it displayed an "act of aggression."
The plane in the Friday incident was unarmed and sending no hostile signals, said Davutoglu. The plane was testing Turkey's radar systems, Davutoglu said.
"You have to first send a caution, a warning," he said in the first detailed Turkish statement on the international incident. "If the warning doesn't work, you scramble your planes, you send a stronger signal, you force the plane to land. There wasn't enough time to do any of that in the time that our plane was in Syrian airspace."
Davutoglu added the plane was shot down in international air space.
Turkey has invoked Article 4 before, after tensions arose on its border with Iraq.
"This did not lead to the invocation of Article 5," Longescu noted.
A senior American administration official speaking on background because of the sensitivity of the issue, told CNN's Jill Dougherty on Sunday that Turkey's request "is just consultations, and they aren't asking for more than that." The official added that the move does mean Turkey considers Syria's shooting down their plane a threat to Turkey's security.
If NATO was looking for a fight, this would be a good opportuity to invoke Article 5, but there is no appetite for a military conflict with Syria at the moment, several NATO diplomats told CNN's Elise Labott on Sunday.
There are many factors that weigh against a military response. First and foremost, the North Atlantic Council has to agree to it. Also, even if agreed, each member can contribute as they see fit.
"This is an individual obligation on each Ally and each Ally is responsible for determining what it deems necessary in these particular circumstances," according to a description of the charter posted on the NATO website.
The United States and many other countries have been vocally opposed to military intervention and will not be quick to encourage Turkey to press the issue. After Syrian troops shelled refugees on the Turkish side of the border earlier this year, Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta made clear that the bar was high for Turkey to claim the need for a collective self-defense.
Panetta was asked about invoking Article 5 at a House Armed Services Committee hearing in April.
"I think it's clear that the only way that the United States would get involved militarily is if there's a consensus in the international community to try to do something along those lines. And then obviously ensure that the international community is able to get the - the authorities required in order to make that happen," Panetta said. "They would have to make clear that what is happening there really does truly represent a direct threat to Turkey. And I think at this point, that's probably a stretch."
In her statement Sunday, Clinton said the U.S. would keep in contact with Turkey as the country determines its response. The U.S. will "work with Turkey and other partners to hold the Assad regime accountable," Clinton said.
NATO members agreeing to respond to this incident is "inconceivable," wrote James Joyner on the Atlantic Council blog. Joyner, who said he opposes military intervention in Syria, felt the incident does not rise to the level of such a response.
"The operative word that almost certainly disqualifies this incident from an Article 5 response is 'attack.' Turkey was engaged in aggressive action along its border with Syria during a particularly tense situation and flew into Syrian airspace," Joyner wrote on Friday, "While shooting down the plane was almost certainly an overreaction - the Assad government has said as much - it's hardly an 'attack.'"
Additionally, Joyner said, the article demands response "to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area."
"Given that the incident is already contained - that is, not likely to be followed by any sort of follow-on action by Syria absent further provocation - said security already exists. Indeed, a NATO or Turkish response would make the area more, not less, secure," Joyner maintained.
But Turkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, may feel compelled to make a decisive response, said Hoover Institution's Fouad Ajami, who explained Erdogan is already under pressure after he turned against Syria's regime and called for the rescue of the Syrian people.
"I think it would be an embarrassment to Prime Minister Erdogan, because he has to make good on the threats that he has made," Ajami said in an interview with CNN's Candy Crowley broadcast on "John King, USA."
Ajami said the shootdown is a worrisome development as it demonstrates Syrian president al-Assad's "sense of abandon."
"Turkey is a NATO member. Turkey is a very, very formidable power. Turkey is four times the size of Syria. The Turkish military is a mighty institution.
"And the idea that this ragtag regime in Damascus would shoot down a Turkish airplane, a jet fighter ... a Phantom - F-4 Phantom plane - tells you that Bashar al-Assad's regime has the sense of invulnerability, that no one is coming to the rescue of the Syrian population," Ajami said on Friday.
But in the end, nobody is expecting the Turks even to ask to invoke Article 5, knowing that NATO would probably not go along, diplomats told CNN on Sunday. The impression was that Turkey itself does not want to ratchet thing up that high, either.
© 2012 Cable News Network. Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
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I suggest that Russia should evaporate Israel to make peace in the middle east
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iran is not going to let anyone bother syria and russia has challenged irans authority so be calm russia vs iran. and we are going to supply water to them russians.
There has never been peace in the islamic world and there never will be.
The f-4 Phantom was probably an unmanned Drone by the way. The USA has operated the aircraft in this role for missile practice since 1991. Any one heard from the grieving relatives of the two crew?
Why is it in the US we know more about the conflict in Syria than we know about the war in Afghanistan?
Turkey you can go in and fight... Just leave the US outta it, we have enough to deal with. Your military if fully capable of handling it.
Yes we can .
!!!!
Haven't we killed enough people? We've been constantly at war since this countries inception. What other country in the world their military in so many other countries? Did you know that bin Laden declared war against? That's right! 9/11 was no sneak attack. He warned us to get our military out of Saudi Arabia and to quit supporting military dictators before he attacked. Do you know why he used civilian aircraft?
He didn't have aircraft carriers, nor did he have cruise missils.
Our military-industrial-complex is constantly formenting excuses for us to bomb one country after another. We bombed the H-l out of Vietnam, and what did it get us? We've been killing Afghanis for a decade. Do you think we are any safer? Wake up!
Bin Laden, as a person, had no authoritiy under international law to declare. Declarations of war are between nations. Most murderers will have ways to justify their acts, Bin Laden is no different. There are times when war is right, and after 9/11 was one of those times. Maybe you should be grateful for all those wars in our history, because most of them have been about freedom. And it's that freedom that gives you the right to make stupid comments.
That sounds ineresting. Can you cite any main stream articles and publications to support your claims? I would like to read more on what you claim? That would save me hours of research.
I believe that you can find bin Laden's Fatwa on the internet. Try a Google search. United States military actions can be found in any library. You can find most of them in the Encyclopedia Brittanica (along with specific bibliographies), Wikipedia, and searches in the Defense Department website.
@Monte – The short answer is no. We have not killed enough of our enemies, because we still have enemies. We are the "biggest kid on the block", and we attract a lot of attention. Bin Laden killed a lot of innocent people, then got a bunch more innocent people killed as we were looking for him. A lot of not-so-innocent people died along the way, and then one of our operators ventilated him, and then we threw him out with the trash. I hope they dumped it before any poor Wogs had to deal with that. Shellbacks know what I mean.
Basically, we fight, because people are trying to kill us and our way of life. They die, because we are better than them.
I'd think there's not an ice cubes chance in hell that they will vote to invade Syria. Although I'm sure Turkey doesn't need permission to attack on it's own and I can see that happening. Someone needs to stop Assad, babies and children are being targeted and murdered daily.
Asad didnt started the war!Those fridom fighters just have to put down their arms and can go home to their children any time they wish.End of story.
I don't think there is a ice cube's chance in hell that Paul is an American. We know how to spell freedom.
That doesn't justify the murder of civilians. Turkey needs to invade and crush the Assad regime under its heel. The Syrian military has zero hope of matching the Turks.
That is inaccurate. Assad, if left in power, will not stop killing until he feels like he has been vindicated. If the fighters dropped their weapons now, Assad would go on a rampage trying to seek out each one of them and their families. The death toll would probably quadruple from what it is now.
I beg to differ. He chose to attack peaceful protesters. He drew first blood. He needs to go!!
Assad's army have caught countless times turkish generals teaching the terrorists! and i say terrorists and not syrian freedom fighter because they AIN'T that! when you have 80% of your army full of mercenaries from other countries then you're not a syrian :p not in my book! Same thing happens to lybia! US should change the pattern of they're attacks because it's getting crappy obvious now! (When i say US i don't mean the people ;p but the goverment that it's presidents go to israel to get the OK for the elections... jeez people... you're sure you're americans???)
Why the hell SHOULD WE BE DRAGGED INTO ANOTHER war? Get the hell out of here, we have our hands full with Afghanistan and we're still in Iraq
Agreed. And I really doubt there will be any outside military intervention. Let Turkey kick some ass. They are entirely capable of it.
That said, if no one over there does anything then I guess we'll be forced to. How can we sit and watch Assad continue to kill kids?
If they need us under article 5 we should be there point blank,u dnt want us going to war with let's say china and they day na were not gonna help.we need to fulfill our obligation to the alliance..
What alliance?
Sacrifice for the greater good.
ITS MORE LIKE The US is forcing the Turks into it. The City of London is instigating all this *&%$
Nerobama is sending in al quaeda, muslim brotherhood and saudi/other forces to kindle this fire. Issaiah 17, the burden of damascas
Let me make it a little more clear. Turkish F-4 fighter went to Syria's airspace and was shot down. Now they want to recall article 5 of NATO to revenge. Can they be more crazy?
You are utterly unbelievable! Turkey is a member of NATO, Syria shot down a one of their planes on a test flight with no armor at all. There is no war between Syria and Turkey, or any other nation. Why would Syria shoot first and interrogate later? I'll tell you why, because they have gotten away with so much recently that they think they are untouchable. Retaliation in kind (not revenge) is in order. Turkey needs to take out the missile site that took out that plane. Pure and simple.
"a test flight" in other country's territory? Doesn't that sound crazy enough? If I remember correctly, that F-4 fighter is shot down by a 25mm anti-air gun, which has an operational range of 2.5km. Now you know how close that fighter is to their shore.
If a aeroplane is fliyng over your head,you dont know if that mashin is armed or not.The turks sould not be there in the first lpace>This is only a provokacion from nato!
its not a fighter plane its surveillance plane .60 years old. plane did not have any weapon on it.
Look at this CNN news,it is "the F-4 Phantom jet which strayed into its territory".
http://articles.cnn.com/2012-06-24/middleeast/world_meast_turkey-syria-plane_1_turkish-plane-assad-regime-fighter-jet?_s=PM:MIDDLEEAST
If you have any military common sense, F-4 or F-4R can not be distinguished on radar screen. So from Syria's side, it is displayed as a fast unknown moving military jet in their territory. Why don't they have rights to shot it down? Do you really think they can find whether it is armed or not from the radar?
Admittedly, it is a disaster, but it is hard to say that is Syria's fault.
Then that sould be written on it,,,,Iam a 60 years old ex fighter plain and I am unarmd,,,I am carrying only spying eqipment to spy on you ppl!!!Please don't shoot.
You couldnt make it clear.
1. The plane was a training plane F4
2. With NO arm
3. The plane entered Syria's field but 2 min later they are warned about it and they got back to the international waters.
4. 11 min later, boom. In international waters. The training pilots. Without any arm.
Clear?
Read this article and my comment to Terry first:
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/12440463-syrian-antiaircraft-guns-shoots-down-turkeys-military-f4-jet
That fighter is shot down by a ANTI-AIRCRAFT gun with operational range of less than 7 km. Recall your geopolitical knowledge that the sea within 21.6 km from one's land territory is considered as its sea territory. Now how can you say that fighter was shot in the international water?
On the other hand, Syria can not distinguish whether that F-4 plane is armed or not from their radar screen. It is a military fighter which shouldn't appear in other country's territory.
usa and britain should try to attack russia and see what the respons would be.
They do not have to attack. They already know what response would be: review and PROMOTION for General Kornukov.
An attack on Syria is not an attack on Russia. I don't care what you think. And besides, Russia hasn't done anything to be attacked for, they are smarter than that.
NATO could use this as an opportunity to knock out a bunch of those SAM sites with HARM missiles which would be both retaliation and a necessary battlefield conditioning step in advance of any further military action. Eh?
Yeeeeehawwww!! Let the fightin and warrin begin. Come on iran, you get in there too. Drive that price of oil up!!!
Montgomery is awesome!!
Montgomery triangle is awesome!!!
http://www.af.mil/information/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=13226
Just a thought
We ought to send Hillary to Syria as a free gift. Let them feed her and listen to her quack all day long!
One aircraft, in armed, flies into another country. That country defends itself, because it can't tell its intentions. Mortar is sent. Aircraft bugs out, maybe, and gets clipped by the barrage. The country that sent the aircraft then says the country attacked them? That's crazy. That is not what article 5 was meant for anyways. This was just a stunt to formally start WW3. You know this would be WW3 because Syria and Russia are allies, and Russia and and China are allies – the red armies. We do not want article 5.
Read and distinguish. Accidental temporary airspace crossings happen between any and every neighbouring country, certain procedure needs to be followed. First you warn the plane with radio to leave your airspace. If ignored, next step is to dispatch planes to force the plane to get out of your airspace or land. As long as the plane was peaceful, only after this stage can you resort to destruction. Turkish plane was unarmed and it was downed without any warning, which makes Syria the faulty and hostile side.
Bravo,,,next time the turks will know not to go where they are not invited.
You don't warn nobody,,,turks sould ask permission first from syria to fly over their teritoris.Lett their intentions know to syrians!(english is my second language)
Russia is a supplier of Syria and a loose ally... They're not as buddy-buddy as you make them sound. If military intervention is decided upon, Russia will disagree, but will in no way start WWIII over Syria. I also thought I read somewhere that the aircraft was unarmed... If so, it definitely warrants a warning message and scrambled jets prior to a barrage...
1. The plane was a training plane F4
2. With NO arm
3. The plane entered Syria's field but 2 min later they are warned and they got back to the international waters.
4. 11 min later, boom.
Clear?
I suggest bombing of Syria by aircraft and Tomahawk missiles to destroy army al-Assad to stop the massacres. Bombing should continue to only 3 days. Then the rebels will fall as the Assad regime .
There is not much to 'force'. The US would only be too happy to find a suitable country to invade next.
.history is it neck his off come to boot the for waiting monster a is he far to gone has Assad
What?
Muslims should not hate America, Europe or even Israel as a people. There are some poerful wolf-like Muslim-haters in these nations who provoke Muslim for violence to cast a slur on peaceful beautiful teachings of Islam.
2nd point is to remind the Muslims they can only blame themselves for their destruction. They must stop serving the purpose of Muslim-haters by killing each other, or by leaving one Muslim nation alone everytime in the hands of wolf-like attackers foolishly thinking that Muslim-haters are their allies at present. Sooner or later every and each Muslim nation would face these wolves and when found alone would be demolished. Iraq Afghan, Pakistan, Libya Syria etc have had their turns. Now it is Iran Yemen & Egypt, and then it would be Turkey & Saudi Arabia Emirates. It is childish to think anyone of these will be spared. Therefore all should sacrifice their mutual grudges and be together, economically, diplomatically and militarily.
Then only you can avoid wars in the world. Now everything has polarized to Islam verses rest of the world. The world has been blinded by these wolves so that they don't see beautiful peace prevailing qualities of Islam. A Messiah is needed to unite Muslims and give vision to world for peace!
They will kill themselves if there are no Christians to fight.
Israel has attacked Arabs repeatedly and murdered scores of them. Being so violent for a long time, killing thousands vs. their killing of hundreds, they gained their hatred. Don't act like victims, don't act like it is happening for no reason.
Those Turks are Mongol invaders with no claim of any right in the middle east. How quickly you forget that the Israelis used Turkish airspace to enter into Syria to bomb certain sites just a few years ago. Those Turks are also using Syrian internal issues as justification to plan a buffer region in Syria, just the same way it used Iraqi issues to invade northern Iraq. The reasons?? To recapture all of its lost possessions, icluding the oil regions. Those Turks murdered 35000 Kurds and destroyed over 3000 villages within its borders and nobody talks about it. Those Turks annihilated 20 percent of its population, the Armenians. Those Turks have invaded northern Cyprus and continue to occupy it, with the blessing of the USA. The truth is, Turks are transplants from dental Asia and do not have any right in the mid east. Never trust a Jew or a Turk, these are evil people bent on destroying the world.
Jews are out to destroy the world? Okay, please explain how Jews are out to destroy the world. Of course you will back up your claims with proof, right?
Let him , He is from Pro-Assad .
Turkish haters inc. 3..2..1..
Alawites who rule Syria they have helped al-Qaeda in Iraq against the U.S military. 4,500 American troops killed in Iraq. Alawites who support terrorism against Israel "Hezbollah and Hamas " . Alawites who support terrorism against Turkey " PKK." . Massacres in Syria by Alawites = crimes against humanity. Alawites = massacres and terrorism. It's time to get rid of the evil regime of Alawites.
you are a crime against humanity
As a citizen of turkey I have to say you are mostly right about what Turks did throughout the history. But it is a wrong argument, you can extend the list, Belgians in congo, france in algeria, and USA!(what happened to native americans), bla, bla Turkey simply trying to be an imperialist force in the region, provocating its neighbours with the encouragement of USA. Syria had all the right to shoot down the plane. Ethnicity does not make sense here. It is mostly about mechanics of capitalism I guess.
Your post couldn't be farther from reality, good job at putting together such random nonsense about Turks.
No claim I am so tired of the no claim hot dogs. By that logic, the Moslems have no claim to the countries in Africa they now rule. Seems to me that before Islam they did not speak Arabic nor did they worship Allah. What is good for one is good for all
Should have shot down the other jet as well.
Next time.
Your little regime is on borrowed time, Mr Syrian! Your murderous leader will go down in flames. It's a mathematical certainty and only a matter of time.
Go Turkey!! Bomb the tar outta the place!!
NATO is not based on the concept that an attack on one is an attack on all. Members can refrain from or join military operations as they deem within their national interest. As a result the following from the article is utterly incorrect: "That call to meet has raised the question of whether other nations, including the United States, would be compelled to strike back on Turkey's behalf. "
NEW YORK: Renowned Indian activist and novelist Arundhati Roy has decried the silence of the international community over the continued “brutal Indian occupation of Kashmir” and said Kashmiris should be given the right to self-determination……
She said so little was known about the atrocities being committed by more than half a million Indian troops, the continuing repression and indignities let loose on Kashmiri men, women and children.
More than 700,000 troops were concentrated in the tiny valley, with checkpoints at every nook and corner of Kashmiri towns and cities. The huge Indian presence, she added, was in sharp contrast with 160,000 US troops in Iraq.
Ms Roy alleged that Indian army or security personnel were killing innocent young children and women.
In fact, "Amnesty International is calling for an impartial investigation into mass graves found in Indian-controlled Kashmir. Sunday, India's Jammu and Kashmir State Human Rights Commission released a report saying a three-year investigation had uncovered 2,156 unidentified bodies in 38 sites in the region. In a statement released Monday, Amnesty International asked Indian officials to allow impartial forensic experts to carry out a thorough investigation of the skeletal remains. The rights group also urged Indian authorities to ensure the safety of the witnesses who gave statements to police during the investigation. Indian authorities conducted the inquiry in response to allegations that Indian security forces have committed rights abuses in fighting a more than two-decade-long Muslim separatist insurgency. Rights activists say at least 8,000 people have gone missing in Indian Kashmir since the separatists began fighting in 1989 for independence from Hindu-majority India or a merger with Muslim-majority Pakistan. Rebel attacks and Indian government crackdowns have killed at least 50,000 people.
Just this morning riots are taking place in Kashmir (Indian Occupied) after apparently hindu soldiers/msicreants burnt down a 350 year old muslim shrine.
Too bad about the shrine.
The Sri Ram Sene was one of the most active groupsin India that launched a series of attacks on Christians and their property in and around Mangalore city in the southern state of Karnataka according to a report, “The Ugly Face of Sangh Parivar,” published by the People’s Union of Civil Liberties (PUCL), in March 2009. In Jabalpur city in the central state of Madhya Pradesh, suspected extremists from the Abhinav Bharat attacked the Rhema Gospel Church according to the Global Council of Indian Christians. They had earlier attacked Pastor Sam Oommen and his family in the same city.
I don't understand why you guys are afraid of this war. We can support Turkey financially and let the suckers die instead of our soldiers. This should be our new defense policy in the Middle East.
New policy?? We have had this in place for decades ! Who won the Vietnam war for us in Afghanistan?....Pakistan !!! We did not not lose a single soldier and did it on the cheap for a few million dollars.
That's what i'm saying. Iraq was an exception and we should avoid doing this again. Just keep the Turks armed until Assad falls. What i read from blogs is that Turkish people are unhappy with the cowardish acts of their government. They are ready to fight.
Brent, you are an effin' imbecile.
Don't forget that the ones ruling the world are the ones people call "imbecile" my dear friend. Go collect some flowers if you wanna play the peaceful man. Long live the United States of America!
Turks fought with us in almost every operation we did in last 50 years. They saved the whole U.S. infantry division in Korean war. And now you call them suckers instead of allies. You imbecile, i really hate ungrateful people !!
so I wonder what would be your defense policy against jupiter? keep martians armed? let the suckers die for you? huh
As a Turkish American, I am terrified and ashamed of people like you. You are the kind of person who will sit in front of a computer and write "Hail America" blah blah but would be even scared to say something if your neighbor broke your window. And with this kind of selfish nationalism, China will eat the US alive by 2050. I will have a second country to go to, and you will die miserably.
for some time it looked as if turkey decided to be decent country,refusing to help with iraq,trading with iran,telling israel off.but,now,they are back to old policies.the media is cheering for war,the real headline should be 'can america force turkey to attack syria?'.
EXACTLY!
2nd point is to remind the Muslims they can only blame themselves for their destructio. They must stop serving the purpose of Muslim-haters by killing each other, or by leaving one Muslim nation alone everytime in the hands of wolf-like nations, foolishly thinking that Muslim-haters are their allies at present. Sooner or later every and each Muslim nation would face these wolves and when found alone would be demolished. Iraq Afghan, Pakistan, Libya Syria etc have had their turns. Now it is Iran Yemen & Egypt, and then it would be Turkey & Saudi Arabia Emirates. It is childish to think anyone of these will be spared. Therefore all should sacrifice their mutual grudges and be together, economically, diplomatically and militarily.
Then only you can avoid wars in the world. Now everything has polarized to Islam verses rest of the world. The world has been blinded by these wolves so that they don't see beautiful peace prevailing qualities of Islam. A Messiah is needed to unite Muslims and give vision to world for peace!
"And the idea that this ragtag regime in Damascus would shoot down a Turkish airplane, a jet fighter ... a Phantom – F-4 Phantom plane"
It tells me that Syria thinks they can do whatever they wish because they know Russia is protecting them.
Maybe Syria has pretty god aim or the turks have crappy pilots,
The pilots never even sent a message and we dont know how many rockets Syria fired to take down the plane
"The assad regime should not make the mistake to think it can act with impunity"
LOL, neither should the west. After its atrocious record in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya you would think they would begin to understand the world is prepared to stop the freedom fascists. NATO may have some technology and such but it won't matter when the nukes start landing on everyone, it ain't gonna matter how many drones you have America, your cities will lay in ruins. It is then you will understand how stupid your aggression over the last decade has been.
As for Westerners, people still are flocking to our society, not the other way around. nobody moves to a muslim country on purpose. they all want to come to America
So ...get off the kool-aid and stopping being an idiot..
I think that comment is Really uncalled for my concern is the entire middle east becoming a more stabilized region which will benefit the entire world. The USA is not going to cause or be a part of a Nuclear conflict nor are it's cities going to be attacked. However certain players in that region could begin a limited conflict for which we would all suffer.
@ Freedom Fascist:
America's record is very clear, we soundly defeat any enemy but we are not nation builders. If Syria really wants to test the waters they will find that they will get burnt in any conflict that involves America.
You do realize that the USA has more nukes then any other country right? The USA could take out the entire middle east in a matter of minutes. The countries that would attack the USA with nukes wouldn't even have enough nukes to destroy the top 10 major cities in the US. So your theory is seiously flawed.
And what makes you think they havnt already targeted us...? where on google earth cant you go and determine the best place to cause massive chaos and death. We've made it easy for them...Thanks Google The internet is such a unpredictable resource
This could be the beginning of a series of Flag ops to create the basis for some type of military intervention. The Real worry is the over 200 Nuclear weapons in Israel's possession, having had the tech since 1968. That the US worries about other countries without calling on Israel to sign the NPT (Non-Proliferation-Treaty) is disgusting. Syria is now a proxy war USA versus Russia, China, Saudia Arabia. Quatar and Iran. Unfortunately we shall just have to let it play itself out now and worry that Israel might fire off a Nuclear weapon against Iran, what a wonderful world (extreme sarcasm)
Wow, what a misguided and ignorant post. Are you really that naive and dumb to think that Israel is the threat ion the ragion? After all , Saudi Arabia, Turkey and other muslim nations in the region are all afraid of Iran obtaining numes and yet have never expressed fear over Israel. You post shows one of tweo things. Either you are a brainwashed anti-semite who hates Israel so much that you are willing to ignore reality and facts or you are just a stupid person who listens to muslim/arabic media for your news and information. Which one is it?
Then why will Israel not declare it's cache of Nuclear weapons that everyone knows they have? Why is the Israel citizen who went public in 1985 still held in prison isolation after Mossad kidnapped him and he be in solitary confinement ever since? Why are numerous nations concerned that Israel will Nuke Iran? I am just educated and will not lower myself to using insulting language as you attempted to do in your posting.
The notion that Turkey might drag us into war with Syria is ludicrous. The Obama administration has been trying to justify a war against Syria for almost a year. If anything, the jet was sent into their airspace as bait. Syria took the bait in shooting it down.
I am sure our government would love to be able to claim to be killing Muslims at the behest of a Muslim ally. This would be great cover.
John: No, you are not educated. If you were, you would have known already that Israeli scientist Mordechai Vanunu was released from prison years ago. Also, Israel is constantly attacked by fanatic Muslims who seek her destruction. Why do they have to give their enemies any knowledge of their capabilities? If Israel does have nuclear weapons, they are strictly for defensive purposes. If they weren't, then don't you think they would have used them already?
*** John
Then why will Israel not declare it's cache of Nuclear weapons that everyone knows they have?
-----------------------------------------–
If everybody knows, whats the point ?
You seem obsessed with Israel.
Whats happening in Syria has nothing to do with Israel.
You are a moron, and an idiot.
That is a U.S. Cache of Nuclear weapons, so why would Israel claim them? Idiot!
No, The REAL story here is that Syria shot down a Turkish jet that violated it's airspace. You have zero proof that Israel is involved in this matter in any form. You are just a liar and deceiver who is trying to deflect attention away from the subject. Also, instead of worrying about Israel signing the NPT, why don't you worry about Iran violating the NPT treaty that it already signed.
In reference to Mordechai Vanunu he has consistently be jailed since his released and is harrassed constantly, all for telling the truth, maybe you should read a little more. Furthermore I am Catholic born and raised in the USA however I do exert my right to call on my own country in regards to turning a blind eye towards Israel along with engaging in False Flag wars ie.. Iraq among many other issues. Finally this is now a proxy war the USA versus the big boys Russia, China etc we shall just have to sit back and watch it play out. I do not believe the USA will put any boots on the ground or commit to any aerial bombardment.
John: No, i think that you need to read a bit more because you post nothing but lies and mis-information. Vannanu was returned to prision because he continuously violated his parole conditions. He is forbidden to speak to the media because he has knowledge of State secrets. But did you ever ask yourself why he was released from prison in the first place? What do you think would happen to a scientist in Iran who disclosed State secrets to the press? If anything, he has been treated incredibly well considering his crime.
Also, you have not one shred of evidence that the US fought the war in Iraq because of Israel. I dare you to show me one bit of evidence. Not one American solder has ever died in defense of Israel, not one.
You are a liar and you spread your lies and propaganda to discredit and destroy Israel.
I never stated Israel was involved in the Iraq False Flag however I exerted my right to point out my country the USA did primarily via Curveball. The German secret police told the USA not to listen to him yet they set up Colin Powell with Curveball's false intel to get us into a war. I also do not like my country giving Israel $10 bil per year in aid while they hide or don't talk about their Nuclear capabilities and the USA turns a blind eye. Again Syria is now a proxy war USA versus Russia, China and others kinda like Vietnam, sure sounds like it. That one the USA started with the False Flag USS Maddox who knows? The Mossad Israeli intel agency is the most feared intel agency in the World they kill across the world on a daily basis the USA just looks the other way. How Israel treated a national citizen shows it is a dirty rogue nation worthy of concern to all but the USA just looks the other way. It's a proxy war pure and simple!
Saudi Arabia is on our side in this one. They are supplying the mercenaries that have been fighting in Syria for the last year.
turkey shoots down a syrian plane and "john's" [ as in toilet?] post is a criticism of israel and the US! pretty far reach even for a dedicated bigot and muslim apologist/whiner. nothing relevant to post "toilet'? PLO news bulletin not out yet for this week? Coo Coo!!
isreal fits all the definitions of a rogue state, the u.s. just cant take its foot out of its mouth and address any of the numerous issues going on over there
Quite a truthful comment I agree 100%
You and John doing some licking ?
The same people, from whatever country, shocked about this kind of behavior are often the same people that support the bloody slaughter of their own and other people in the name of religion, politics, money, or whatever. Hypocrite
It is very hurting, the Jews think they stole all the brains their God manufactured. Every time they have no logical answer they will immediately start using epithets of moron, imbecile , fool idiot etc etc., or like a child start raising hues and cries in the name of 'Antisimite' 'holocaust' and what not! If you have guts don't call on people to pity on you, hit and face the counter hits.
John- Let me list the countries that conduct military exercises with the U.S. in the region...Turkey, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Oman, Egypt and Jordan. Who have I left out? Lebanon? Iraq? In no shape to conduct operations. Syria? Self explanatory. Yemen? Full cooperation with the U.S. in battling Al Qaeda. What do you think they're cooperating with the U.S. for? To protect themselves from big bad Israel? Maybe not Egypt, but the rest are focused on that country on the eastern side of the Arabian Gulf. Which countries in the region are cooperating with Iran to defend themselves from Israel? ZERO. I think you may want to re-consider your assessment of Israel as a "threat" to the region...because the by my math 9 countries disagree with your position, Iraq and Lebanon at present are irrelevant, and Syria doesn't count. If you want to count Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood's statement that Israel is, you can have that one. Still, 9 v 2 (Iran and Egypt) in the region really shows who everyone considers at "threat".
No,,,Israel have atom bombs since 1945,,,you just ask Dr Leo Szilard the Hungarien jewish treitor!(English is my second language)
It's two Islamic countries, who care? let them kill each others, it save us billions, then nuke of rubbles of what's left. Islam in all it's form is the ENEMY OH HUMANITY
People like you aren't only bad for muslims but also bad for USA and anywhere else in the world. We should make a country only for idiots like you in the world and nuke it.
But you desperately need Muslim oil, you idiot!
Are you guys nuts? This is not a video game. All US can think of is who to attack next. If everyone paid same attention to economy, we would be doing much better.
Having a pro war author write this article is like having Hitler write a reasoning why Germany should attack others.
As an American I am tired of war. Let's let NATO handle this one and we will watch from the sidelines for a change.
NATO?? Who do you think is the 'major funder' of nato?? Probably not for long as the United States has 'borrowed' above their limit & their economy is set for a nose-dive.
Not if we can vote Obama out of office in November!
Could Syria be right no one is coming to help the Civilian Population....No one at all...
If they want Russia to nuke Ankara. This is not some little game of monopoly.
Do you think Russia has the guts to attack Turkey? If they had they would not dream about the straits (Istanbul Bosporus and Dardanelles) for centuries and salivate!
Russia would not jeapordize themselves for Syria. Nuking a NATO member would definately trigger Article 5 and expose Russia to attack in kind. Ain't gonna' happen.
You're right. It's Risk.
this is how world wars get started...
Intentionally get started by the bankers and their military proteges
Syria should have warned the plane before shooting it down. Could even get some planes up towards it.
Some trigger happy people over there in Syria.
Yeah...but, it's time to stop playing these types of games. Don't breach airspace unless you accept the risk of getting shot down. We're obviously not talking about some uninhabited area; if it's got SAM batteries there, then Turkey was probably gathering intellegence.
I think it's a safe to say that Syria may have been hiding something and quite obvious that the Turkish military was trying to find out what it was. The Syrian government knows the rules of engagement but obviously couldn't risk letting that F-4 get away with whatever it found. Not that I'm saying it was warranted but I think we all really know what "testing a new radar system" literally means.
'Trigger-Happy' people in Syria, LOL Have you seen the United States lately?? Hillary & Yo-MaMa 'threatens' other countries with 'Sanctions' up to AND including MILITARY Intervention!! That'd be fine but I think these idiots that think they are the Head-Honchos of the country(Including the Congress & Senate) should all grab a weapon & be the 'Leaders' that they claim to be & LEAD. Most of them have no idea what war is and have NEVER served their country in that capacity. They'd probably wet their pants when the first bullet zipped past them, LMAO
How do we know the Syrians didn't warn? Only the pilots knew but they are probably dead and won't testify.
In a war time they dont have to warn anybody.
My Dear Adam Levine,
I am Sid Harth.
The right answer to your rhetorical, Oops, nonsensical question is a big NO!
Do something else. Say, underwater basket weaving, for heavenssake. Idiot!
...and I am Sid Harth@webworldismyoyster.com
STOP SACRIFICING AMERICAN LIVES FOR ISRAEHELL!
U.S/NATO want to DESTABILIZE the whole Mid-East so that Israehell lives "peacefully in a hostile region." Iran is now a thorn in their side. Meanwhile they have every right to nuclear power. Western nations are the world's best examples of hypocrits.
Keep getting yourself into wars America and a "future for your children" will be a myth. Your economy is going down the DRAIN as I type this.
Ordinary idiot Americans wake up.
Oh, I see the Jew-hater Mark is back to spread his lies and propaganda. First, Not one American has ever died in defense of Israel. Second, You have zero proof that the US/NATO want to destabilize the ME for Israel. You are just making it up. You are a typical liar and Jew-hater.
I have said this before and I say it again. Mark ts another one of those who blame Iarael for everything that happens in a muslim country.Muslims kill muslims,It's caused by Israel, muslims rape muslims blame it on Isreal.A muslim is constipated Mark blames Israel.I'll bet marks real name is Achmed or Abdul.
You are a huge idiot. If this is your logic, I think it best you flush your toilet. You stink.
Oh come on now – Israel doesn't NEED the United States help anymore – they've got all the surplus nukes we had & they aren't afraid to use them against their neighbors, LOL
It seems his real name is not Mark and looks like he is from Porkistan.
Wow, posts like this never cease to amaze me! You must be a very hateful and ignorant person "Mark". Have you ever been to IsraeHell? The only democracy in the region which allows all religions and all people to live anf thrive there. I wonder if Saudi Arabia, iran, Syria and Lebanon are open to Jews and chirstians to worship freely and be a part of the government. Answer is NO, you ignorant idiot!
from a person whose children already have no future except poisoned wells, acid in their faces, car bombs on the way to the mosque or church, and lunatic killers killiing anyone who doesn't agree with their version of god. look in the mirror and see the real hypocrite, loser.
It closes its biggoted/racist mouth or it get the hose again.
Mark,
Did you pee yourself again ?
Please say no to war...whether Syria shot the damn jet down or not.War against them does not make us better than them...It pulls us towards them and when 2 fools are arguing,no one sees the difference.
Turkey was all in an uproar over the flotila made all kinds of threats , Turkey losses a jet and they hardly say a word .
a Turkey , Syria war.....we all win ... bang on , ill go get the popcorn
let those arabs slaughter each other. turkey should not intervene
Turkey are not alone to decide. Let several head of NATO to decide. It might cause of havoc amount the nation humanitarian sake. Most of are innocent in Syria.
That's the reason Turkey want to attack Syria. To protect the innocent Sunni muslims from Alewite community. Turkey's attack will hopefully wipe off the Alewites and Esad from the map. Go for it Turkey!!! Our heart is with you!!!
An attack on Syria would be a HUGE mistake, and 95% of Americans recognize that. Unfortunately, the opinion of the American public has not impact on what Washington decides to do, but we surely suffer from their repeated mistakes.
I think that these things are a lot bigger than "Washington" and a few heads of state. I simply do not believe that the President of the United States has what appears to be a simple go/no-go decision on these things anymore...unless you're talking about beating a war drum and invading a sovereign nation like Iraq. President Obama has done well to repair our standing in the world, but the fact of the matter is that if Turkey decides to engage Syria, we will have no choice but to adhere to prison yard rules and choose a side. People don't like to hear it (namely conservatives), and 9/11 started the instability, but GWB really REALLY REALLY made a HUGE mistake in invading Iraq. The dynamics of world influence are now completely in chaos.
I dont want America in syria at all , Not our job running around saving muslims from each other
95% of Americans recognize that....................
How nice of you to call every single one of them and ask.
Buradan tüm dünyaya söylemek istediğim bazı şeyler var. Biz Türklerin dostluğu daimidir. Düşmanlığı ise çok serttir. Bizim tarihimizi Türk tarihini bilen herkes ne demek istediğimi çok iyi anlayacaktır. 2 pilotumuz şu an kayıp öncelikle onların bulunması için uğraşılıyor. Suriye'ye tepkimiz daha olmadı. Pilotlarımız bulunsun sonrasında her şey gelişecek ona inanıyorum. Atatürk'ün ve Osmanlı gibi bir ecdadın torunları olarak söylüyorum. Herkes ayağını denk alacak.
Stop with that Turkish garbage.
Joe you are garbage yourself, You are a polute
Dogru soyluyorsun kardesim. You are right.
türkün türke reklami, gerizekali ingilizce yazsana
Allah'in cahilleri. Sizin Suriyedeki savastan haberiniz yok. Suriyedeki savas Sunnilerle Aleviler arasinda. Aleviler Sunnilerden nefret ediyor. Cok seviyosunuz Alevileri cok simartiyosunuz Turkiyede. Bi ic savas ciksinda bakalim, bak aleviler size neler yapicak. Beterini gorursunuz Suriyede yaptiklarindan. Cani yurekten istiyorum Allahim, su Turkiyedeki sunnilerin alevilerin gercek yuzuni gormesini...
Can someone translate Turkish please? I would like to know what Tarik is saying. Thanks.
Translated with Google:
Ignorant of God. You do not know about the war in Syria. War between Sunnis and Alawites in Syria. He hates Sunnis Alevis. Very very simartiyosunuz Alevis in Turkey in seviyosunuz. Let Bi ciksinda civil war, look at what you will do Alevis. Syria will see've done worse. I would like to heartily Allahim Cani, water Sunnis Alevis Trade show Directory to see the real face of ...
Yes, you are right Midnight Express is a good movie. I didn't particualy like the shower scenes but when his girlfriend comes to see him in jail is a real treat. Why are Turkish men so willing to rape another man? I heard they do goats and sheep, also.
Gimme an EF
Gimme a You
Gimme a see
Gimme a kay
Whats that spell ?
I sure hope not because NATO is a DEFENSIVE alliance. If this is used as a pretext for attack then I will really know just how corrupt it has gotten here in the "free world".
NATO has not defended anything for ages on end. Yes, the so-called "Free World" has become quite corrupt as the M.I.C. in Washington is becoming more and more in control of that organization. For a very long time now, no European nation has done anything on it's own! All they do is to sit around and take orders from Washington D.C.
I only hope here that Killer O'Bama doesn't do something stupid here like going to war on Turkey's behalf! We need a president who harbors no animosity toward the Muslims but unfortunately, it will be years before we get one! Enough of this stupid warmongering already!
"Killer Obama" can't hold a candle to "Killer Bush W"! Bush went to "war" based on rumors and his "shock and awe" solved nothing! His revenge only made matters worse. Obama has stood up to Israeli demands that we attack Iran. Now Turkey?
George W. and Dick C. both salivated over taking out a dictator, Saddam, so their friends could get cheap oil from Iraq. They "screwed up" big time! China and India got the oil. Saddam kept Iran in check, now Iraq is highly influenced by Iran!! Thanks to "democratic elections"!
US foreign policy has been a disaster for many decades. Will "we" ever learn?
You have zero proof of any of the things you just wrote, moron. You sound like a first-semester poli sci major with a gpa of 1.75.
StanCalif must be a muslim or a liberal democoot.They condem G.W.B.. for everything he did but use his actions to justify what Obama is doing. According to him it was wrong for Bosh so that makes it alright for Osama Obama.
*** George W. and Dick C. both salivated over taking out a dictator, Saddam, so their friends could get cheap oil from Iraq. They "screwed up" big time! China and India got the oil.
----------------------------------------------------
Wrong dirt bag, America wasnt supposed to get the oil,
Bush's oil buddies got the oil and sold it to China.
The rich take care of the rich.
Don't worry Jews. You have plenty of friends in the USA. Everybody knows when zhit hits the Fan we will have your backs in a Flash despite the laughable bullsht these mickey mouse Muslim misfit cyber jihad cells try to propagate. Let us know if you need any help! We owned the Nazis in Germany 60 years ago we are about ready to own them again in the middle east
I second that!
Are you sure you are ready? At what price? Another depression or just printing more money?
the Khazar false Jews backed Hitler. Read Revelation 2:9 and the hiistory of the Khazars. Israel is about economic domination of the world. The real Jewish remnant is not the government of Israel. We are being deceived.
JiminNm: You forgot to take your pills for your paranoid schizo disorder today.
coo coo!!
Muslims they love death as we love life .
so why the crying , or 72 virgins is bullcrap , i thought so
when Mohamad raped the 9 year old she said mohamd your hurting me , mohamd said get used to it .
British royal family can trace its heritage (family tree) all the way back to ancient Judea.
And these morons call you nuts.
The British royal family is NOT British, they are German.
Read the bible? It's a book, just a book of some fantastic stories. May be true, may not be true. Who knows? How can you believe in something you can't see, touch or smell?
60 years a go america only was kicking the dead man.Russians did a real job on Germany.Good old USA did not even won against half of Vietnam!
You people read CNN and write such crap? The situation in Syria is an international issue. All the racist and nationalist comments here are digsuting and don`t lead to a decent conversation. Before you don`t have to say anything senseful, just don`t hit the keys and be quiet.
germany should leave the euro, schnell!
Agreed! Deutschland über alles. The responsibility of the German government is to the German people first.
I never liked the whole Euro thing when it was created. But if you now take Germany out, the Euro will collapse completely. The main reason the Euro is failing is Socialism. In Socialism, you have to have people working and paying high taxes in order to support all the social programs for those that are unable to contribute, as well as those that are contributing, thus there's not much incentive to work hard and make lots of money. With Capitalism, you have to work hard for what you want, and hard work is rewarded.
People that think a two class society like Socialism is a good idea have never experienced anything else, or they are just lazy and don't want to work for what they want. A single class society will only ever exist in futuristic science fiction movies. So having multiple classes is better than the Socialistic two class society.
I say down with Socialism and up with Capitalism. Work hard and get rewarded for it.
I say down with Socialism and up with Capitalism. Work hard and get rewarded for it.
-------------------------------------–
Work hard and the Rich pay you crap and you get knowhere.
Those who have the gold, make the rules.
Capatalism is financial slavery to the rich.
Rats,,,they started it!
Words from a true Communist! Sensor us because you don't like what we are saying.
It's the right-wing fanatics who do all the censoring, not the Communists! In fact, George Patton was censored once and for all on CNN's This Just In just because the idiots didn't like what he was saying! So Alex, if you're going to talk about censoring, look to CNN!
Yeah, CNN is the most left leaning media outlet in the U.S. You sure picked the right censor machine to make your point. Idiot!
In fact, this entry just might get censored right now.
Shut up yourself, ALEX. Learn to type the english language before you give more advice.
I can't help but feel Merkel is somehow to blame for all this
No surprise here, crunchy. She is in fact! Like you said, Germany needs to quit the Eurozone as every other member nation does!
Germany tried to take over Europe ww1 and lost.
Germany tried to take over Europe ww2 and lost.
Now Germany sits at the head of the table in a united Europe.
They found another way to take over Europe, worked this time.
Your All a bunch of slaves!!!
Turkey's air space has been violated 114 separate times so far this year but each instance was quickly resolved peacefully. This happens between any and every neighbouring country, certain procedure needs to be followed. First you warn the plane with radio to leave your airspace. If ignored, next step is to dispatch planes to force the plane to get out of your airspace or land. If there is no hostility, only after this stage can you resort to destruction. Turkish plane was unarmed and it was downed without any warning. If Turks acted like Syria, Turkey could have downed 114 planes for airspace violations in 2012 alone.
You are looking on to the issue objective, i hope that jet down is not a jewish trick. they love to make that kind of diplomatic tricks. But as i see there deep issues are exist between israil russia iran and syria......they re just doing that for fool...nosense. I have been near syrian boarder. People are starwing there. So they wanna do war with Turks .? i think no, some people want WAR and some guys are playing...I hope we wont be a player ! better to be coach .
If your camal could run as fast as you LIE you would be out of that muslim sandpile by now.
I lost my car keys yesterday.
Must be a Jewish trick.
Phuckin moron.
Turkey has flown into Cypriot and Greek airspace countless times. Constantly scrambling fighters to chase their F14's out.
It's vice versa. Greeks fly into Turkish airspace all the time too. Cyprus as well, although that one is insignificant and not worth mentioning.
I didn't know Jeffersonville was that bad. Surprising.
Yeah, it's Incirlik isn't it? And you people know it. Wonder if that's where they'll stash Assad's dead body after Clinton and Petraeous torture the guy to death. Probably loading up with guns, bombs and propaganda leaflets for the ongoing "liberation" of Syria.
Probably Turkey will seek if they can destroy all syria anti aircraft defense.
I don´t think that Turkey will ask for launching air strike against syria now... but a correspondent access to military tecnology by USA and to know where are the anti aircraft missiles and defenses.
Then, on a swift move, it will launch an massive ofensive by sea and air of 2-3 hours to destroy everything they can from the air defenses.
After that, they will wait to see what does syria do. If they attack Turkey... then Nato will destroy everything that is military connected to the regime in syria.
And Turkey is still waiting to see why did syria taked down there aircraft, but 3 days earlier a russian bomber that was passing through the region got over syria without authorization and it was a Nato plane that was trailing the russian bomber that informed them they where inside Syria air space.
these clowns still warmongering?
Its election time. Obama isn't going to touch this. His head is already buried in the sand.
I donot understand the support for B.Assad here!! Clearly, it states that the Turkish UNARMED jet was shot down in INTERNATIONAL waters. Rules are rules, people. The UNARMED Turkish jet was supposed to get a WARNING and this did not happen. This is a BRAZEN act and it underscores international law. Given that both countries neighbor each other, it is LIKELY this will happen and possibly again. and Davutoglu says there was no radio warning, no jets sent to force landing or retreat. In fact he implies there was no need for any of these measures any way as the incursion was momentary. Thus there was also absolutely NO NEED to shoot the plane down either.
Most of what you see here is not support for Assad. It's objections against the U.N. and the U.S. sticking their noses into the internal affairs of another country. Assad had every right to shoot down Turkeys unarmed MILITARY jet. He's under threat of intervention every day from forces outside his country.
Let Syria waste away and fight its own wars. Spend the money on America and educate the youth of america. Spend our money ourselves and fix our issues.
Stop giving billions of US taxpayers' money to Israel every year. In 1-2 years that money can save USPS, then it can be used to fix other issues including education of American youth.
Why do you focus just on aid to Israel? The US gives billions to Pakistan, Egypt, Jordan, etc. At least Israel has to spend 80% of the military aid that we give them back here in the US. What do the Arabs states give back to us?
Busta: The aid given to other countries is not nearly close to the aid given to Israel even when added up. Besides, stop the giving back BS, that's the most absurd propaganda I hear. Just stop taking US taxpayers' money and waste it to attack your self-created enemies, Americans need it. Stop bullying the US politicians through your lobbies and threatening them with Jewish votes. Deal with your problems yourselves, Americans don't owe you any money.
Mark: First of all, I am an American and second, there is no BS or proganda. The FACT is that Israel receives military aid from the US or which 80% must be spent back in the US. Don't believe me? Then look it up yourself. Israel also gives much back to the US in terms of advanced technolgies and counter-terror and counter-insurgency methods. You have no clue about how much Israel helps the US.
Israel has self-created enemies? I am sorry if their mere existence causes the Muslim lunitics to hate them but the Israelis are here to stay, so they better put down their weapons and make peace for the sake of not just Israel but also themselves.
Busta: Post your propaganda elsewhere, nobody cares about where you spend the money, spend your own money and spend it wherever you want, just stop taking billions of US taxpayers' money, period. US government should give the money to Americans to spend it in America. "Give me money, I'll spend it there" is not a solution, then you're getting free stuff, same thing. Israel's "help" is like a flea on a camel when compared to the help it receives. It should be Muslim lunatics vs. Jewish lunatics, keep Americans out of the equation. You may be an American citizen, but you're obviously a Jew.
Busta: You Jewish propagandists are well-known to act like a third party, nobody buys it. Americans gained enemies they wouldn't have if you weren't their "ally". Without an ally like Israel, US would be in far better shape now. They lost soldiers, money, their economy went down, they gained enemies, lost credibility. On top, they give you billions in aid. With such an "ally", who needs enemies? They need to leave you to your fate as soon as possible, for their own good. You bully their politicians through your lobbies and threaten with Jewish votes. You pump lies and propaganda into US public on a daily basis to fool clueless Americans to think that you are their ally. They are waking up, slowly but surely, you want the status-quo to continue because you benefit from it but it will come to an end much sooner than you think.
Diane: You may be an American but you are obviously a Jew-hater. America doesn't live in a vacuum. We live in a global community and when we provide foreign aid, we do not give it for free. We usually expect something in return. If you would suspend your hatred and stop being shortsighted, you would realize that America gets much back from Israel for our investment. First, because 80% of the aid is spent back here in America, this helps provide jobs for Americans in the defense industry. Israel anti-terror methods and techniques protect both you and me from terror attacks. Israeli technology protects our borders and help fight terrorists abroad. The cooperation between the US military and Israel is huge. All I am say is the truth but your hatred of Jews has blinded you.
Mark: You Jew-hating propagandists are well-known to act like a third party, nobody buys it. Israel has made enemies for America? Who? Jordan? No. Saudi Arabia? No. Egypt? No. Bahrain? No. Yemen? No. Oman? No. Kuwait? No. Qatar? No. Turkey? No. You are just a liar and a propaganda artist. No American has ever died in the defense of Israel. i dare you to provide one shread of evidence that America fought in Iraq for Israel. you can't because you are a liar.
Busta: Stop being an "ally" of Americans and there won't be terror in the United States, they owe it to Israel to begin with. And just stop taking Americans money when they can't even save the USPS, nobody cares about you spending it in the US, it doesn't matter. If Wal-Mart gave you money to spend it there, how would they stay in business? Come with your own money. Americans can invest it themselves rather than giving it to you and you buying free stuff with a percentage of it from the United States. And, Americans don't need your help with anything, it's all a game in your benefit, Americans aid you more with investments in Israel on top of the aid. It's not a win-win situation despite how hard you try to show it differently, Israel wins and Americans lose in this relationship. You are well-known to accuse anyone that posts the truth about Israel to be a hater and anti-semite, that won't take you anywhere.
Mark: I am still waiting for you to prove that America fought in Iraq for Israel. Eveything I wriiten is 100% true whereas all you have written is unsubstantiated lies and propaganda. Face it, you hate Jews and you hate Israel. Why is that so difficult for you to admit? You write poisonous lies and propaganda to discredit and destroy Israel. Why?
please stop quoting from the bulletin board tripe in the islamic center, "benjamin". saving the USPS is your main objective? get a lot of mail from yemen?
Dianne and Mark make a great couple.
Pray that they dont breed.
When somebody's comments don't serve to your interests, you namecall and come up with all sorts of accusations. Stop your childish posts, you Israelis are almost same as Arabs yet you try to act like you are different. The entire world criticizes you, it doesn't make them Arabs or Muslims. And those two criticize you for very good reasons too since you are extremely violent against them, you murder scores of innocent civilians, they get to kill tens vs. you kill thousands, but you are propaganda masters so you manage to show them as the bad side. You are worse, Americans need to leave you two alike middle eastern races to your own fate with eachother.
I agree. The US Post Office is much more useful than izraeel.
That's pretty short sighted. If we had done that during WW2 we would all be speaking German now, and the Nazi's would be in charge... not to mention there would be no Jewish state, and probably no Jews at all.
Lay syria out!nobody follows the rules!its a war!nuff said?
Sounds like another Gulf of Tonkin to me.
Yes! bomb em!
sensible and acceptable in the respectful terms. Where does Sec. Clinton dig up that extremist terminology?
Yes
Turkey should've bombed the site where the missile came from within like 10 mins of their jet going down, it's that simple.. That's what Israel would've done! Instead, they went to NATO complaining..blah blah blah
There lies the difference. Turkey does not act recklessly and violently, they always thoroughly evaluate the situation and exhaust all political communication channels as long as it's not an obvious act of war. This issue does not warrant an immediate response, thus no decent nation would immediately respond and do what you said in such a case. Israel is notorious for violence, you wouldn't expect them not to attack. Plus, Israel bullies countries that are far weaker than itself, they don't attack any country that will give them slightest hard time. Instead, they make Americans fight their enemies at no cost to them, receive sympathy and billions of dollars of US taxpayers' money on top. Iraq first, Iran is on their agenda next, Israel loves the status-quo to continue because it's to their benefit. With such an ally, US needs no enemies.
This is a typical stupid comment from a typical Israel hater. America fought for Israel in Iraq?? Okay, where is your proof. Show me one shread of evidence that your statement has some truth to it. Israel is notrious for violence? I don't see Israelis walking into restaurants, buses, schools and discoteques strapped with suicide belts and blowing up inncocent people. I didn't see Israelis dancing in the streets and handing out candies when the twin towers were destroyed but I did see Arabs rejoicing. You are a liar and a propaganda artist. I hope your hatred consumes you.
Busta: You always have some twisted story and you always attempt to challenge the person who posts the truth about Israel, your games are well-known. Your hatred should consume you.. not the Americans. Of course Israel made Americans attack Iraq and eliminate your #1 enemy. You made Americans suffer casualties and lose money, credibility, gain enemies, at no cost to you.. on top, you received sympathy and aid. Status-quo makes you win and Americans lose, you want it to continue. Right now, Israel is trying to make Americans attack Iran, you constantly warn Americans that it's time. If it's time, deal with it yourselves, stop telling the Americans. You can't turn the table around with propaganda, truth is out in the open for everyone to see, words won't change who you are in people's eyes.
Mark: You are a pathetic liar. I will ask again. Show me one shread of evidence that the US fought the war in Iraq for Israel. Just one shread. But you can't because it is just propaganda spread by Israel haters to undermine and destroy Israel. The only one here who is twisting the truth is you Mark.
He is right, everybody knows it, otherwise why would Americans get involved in the middle east? US had nothing to do with your region, you got Americans involved, they gained enemies. 9-11 was either a response to this involvement or an Israeli act, either way you got Americans eliminated the Iraqi regime for you which was the biggest threat to Israel at the time. You got that accomplished, then moved on to Iran. Now, you keep trying to initiate an Iranian war, Israeli leaders give speeches about how it's getting late for action and such, just search CNN. If that's the case, you should do whatever you want to do, don't talk, do. Americans suffered enough in your hands, leave them alone.
You fascist extremist muslims still dont get it. Your above conversation is why, whenever or for whatever reason i happen to reconsider my country's support of israel (financial or otherwise) , i make myself take a step back and remind myself, these people (you and your fascist brethren) have never read a history book, most likely never done anything but for your own self-gain, youre so locked up in your particular mindset and way of thinking in your desperate country, you would never consider the billions of people outside of your faith... so i would actually want my government to redouble its support for israel. i might in fact make a first time donation to the ADL as a result of your obscenely childish attempt at manipulating random strangers who read your propaganda. May god, whichever one you pretend to follow, grant swift death upon you liars and distortionists everywhere who do nothing but bring more death and misery to their countries. Forgive me for now leaning towards a full out war in the middle east, but you dont make it very hard.
Diane: Yet another typical stupid comment from someone who is clueless. Why are we involved in Korea? Why are we involved in Taiwan? Eastern Europe? South America? Mexico? Cuba?, etc. etc. We are involved everywhere in the world not just the ME. 9-11 was because of an Israeli act? Show me you proof. Show me one shread of evidence. You can't because you are a liar.
It's the filthy method of you Jews to act like a third party, this last comment is posted by a Jew as well. You involve religion to gain sympathy. Israelis created religious division and polarization among world population to benefit from it anyway, just like you use it on your propaganda frequently although that is not at all the subject. It should be extremist Jews vs. extremist Muslims, stop dragging Americans into the equation, leave them alone since they have nothing to do with the middle east, they suffered enough thanks to you – the so-called "ally". You kill far more Arabs, you make far more Arabs suffer, they do little, yet your lies and propaganda show them as "extremists". The entire world condemns your violence, yet you bully everyone and continue your ugly ways. You can't change it with words.
Okay, NOW we all can see the true Mark. I don't need to call you a Jew hater and antisemite. Your own post prove it for me.
oooooooooo i see the bulletin board at the islamic center just tacked up the latest PLO arguing points. is that rain in dearborn or just your tears accompanying your crying of the palestinian mantra: "woe is me, woe is me, everyone but us is the cause of our misery"?
Israel doesnt bully anyone.
Is some Palestinian banging you ?
Be it islamic center or jewish center, you are two alike middle eastern races which should leave Americans alone and deal with your own issues. Stop acting like you're decent, Arabs are bad but you're even worse. Israel is far more violent than the Arabic countries, you murder scores of Arabs and then act like the victim when they respond and manage to kill a few. Your lies and propaganda won't save you forever, people are waking up.
Turkiye should have been kicked out of OTAN a long time ago.
Russia is now a capitalist country.
You should have gotten kicked out of earth long ago, post your hatred driven random nonsense elsewhere.
I like a big Turkish salami.
Mark and Turkiye have a lot in common.
I'm just curious, why would you say that Turkey should have been kicked out, unless you are trolling?
You and hell have a lot in common.
as you say Russia is Capitalist and same on policy level like a Banana Repuplic with a Putin as new Despote and Mafia.
First we Americans will kicked you from EUROPE allso from Asia as well. Hahahahaha
you would really like that dont you? israeli hasbarah
Turkey provoked the response and is supporting terrorism in Syria. Fortunately Russia has made it very clear that it won't tolerate an attack by NATO. Surely NATO's bloodlust has been filled with the destruction of Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan.
(laughter) and what exactly is Russia going to do about it?
Accusing NATO of 'bloodlust' in Afghanistan (responding to an ATTACK on a member) and Libya (dealing with a brutal dictator who went on public TV and informed the world he was going to exterminate a section of his own population) is laughable. Oh, and NATO wasn't in Iraq at all.
You fail.
Russia has already stopped an attack on Syria. NATO only attacks weak adversaries; the US also.
Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. And no Afghans were involved either. Libya is now run by gangs of terrorists.
Get some facts you dummy.
I would not accuse nato of bloodlust; but certainly of world-domination-lust, which I think ought to be stopped. And, if you want to attack any country of this world, it is always easy to find a pretext (and to media-manipulate the more naive majority of your citizens into supporting it).
Perhaps you should learn to read, it would help you look less foolish.
I never said or implied Iraq had anything to do with 9/11, why would you lie and pretend otherwise?
Of course NATO only attacks weaker countries. there ARE only weaker countries. And Russia has not stopped anything, you are delusional if you imagine otherwise.
you do not read very carefully, either. He did not say "weaker" but "weak". And that is true. You do not see nato attack countries like Russia, China, India or Brazil, or even Nortk Korea; that is countries, where you could expect some retaliation on your own soil. And, for your info, nato is only the US. The rest of the nato countries do not help much there, and their people are mostly ashamed for their countries being mambers of nato.
Russia, China, India or Brazil are not killing their own people by the hundreds or thousands... you idiot!
Turkey is just consulting with NATO as a member state, nothing more than that, nobody should take it out of context. Turks will not want to activate Article 5 or attack Syria neither alone nor with NATO. All they want is to show Syria that their action will not be tolerated if it repeats, otherwise they are not warmongers like newlyfound adventurist countries that get involved in unjustifiable wars, Turkey never acted recklessly in such situations throughout history, it takes far more for them to resort to violence.
finally a decent comment !
Very well put, gazzman. Thank you.
I think Turkey should blow up a major Syrian military base. The Syrian regime needs to know that it is not the untouchable regime that the international community has implied that it is by not taking action thus far.
NATO needs to do something here. Article 5 of the NATO charter needs to be invoked. Al-Asad needs to be shown that shooting down a military plane from any NATO country will not be tolerated, and there will be consequences to ensue.
I don't know why there is such a debate about this. Syria needs a new government at the top, here is a chance for NATO to make that happen without any further bloodshed to the Syrian people.
Why should the Syrian people have to find refuge outside of their own country. Syria belongs to the Syrian people, not to the Syrian government!
Funny if they blew up Incirlik Air Force base where the CIA is basing their shipments of war materiel to Bushama's phoney "rebels".
i do agree with one sentence – Syria belongs to Syrian people. therefore, why should nato decide for them? do you think people – or majority of them- in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya and other countrie wanted to be bombed or have their future decided by nato? and do not tell me it is about saving lives, because every bombing or invasion by itself cost thousands and thousands of innocent lives.
Were you born just today? The Syrian people are begging for NATO or anyone else to come and help them. What a bonehead!
Sphere82, I don't know who you are or where you're from, but imagine your countries president bombing cities and villages in your own country and you couldn't do a thing to stop it. Wouldn't you want some help from anyone that would give it?
funny how Israel can break any international law...with impunity...
Actually Israel has broken very few international laws, certainly compared to its brutal Muslim dictator neighbours. It gets ACCUSED of breaking international law all the time by these same totalitarian dictators, but most (not all, but most) of those accusations are laughable.
Gaunt: Words are cheap, your post is as far from truth as it can get. Israel violates international law more than any other country in the world. The entire world condemns, you come up with self-righteous justifications and continue. There is a very very long list. Please post your lies and propaganda elsewhere.
Really Dianne? What a fascinating lie. OK, if the list is so long, then please tell us, what International laws has Israel broken in, say, the last decade? I'm curious.
What good will it do? You will blatantly deny them all anyway. The whole world knows, you don't? You copied tourists' passports and Mossad used them to enter foreign countries to assassinate your opponents. Those countries, along with the entire world, condemned your actions to the extreme, you just denied it all. You rained Gaza with phosphoric bombs, the entire world condemned, you either denied or bullied everyone as usual. You attacked an unarmed humanitarian aid ship which posed no threat to you and murdered 9 peace activists, the entire world condemned it and nobody -not even the US politicians- sided with you, yet you still come up with stories and accusations and try to justify your actions in various ways. Just examples which you will have twisted versions of all, you are self-righteous bullies who justify every violent action of themselves in their minds.
Funny how a story that has nothing to do with Israel becomes a story about Israel.
Funny how Israel has nothing to do with this story.
Item V of the NATO: If a member of NATO was attacked , all members of NATO must help the member who was attacked.
Yes , It is not the first time, last April, soldiers from Assad Army attacked the Turkish border, 2 of the citizens were wounded Turks, and killed 2 of the refugees in Syria. Syrian attacks will be repeated. Therefore, the Turkish army
the U.S and NATO should intervene in Syria because Turkey is a member of NATO .
In these sensitive days, flying into Syrian airspace and provoking Syria is a mistake. You shall think possible consequences before acting such air space violation. Because Syria is very unstable. Now Turkey lost one plane, and missing pilots. And best case scenario Syria will apologize, so what?, Turkey is the looser here anyway unless being strong enough to attack Syria directly which is never going to happen... in practice Syria is supposed to warn before shoot, but they did not follow it... As a Turkish citizen, I like to question why we were in Syrian air space before anything else? now are we seeking help from comedy NATO members? no strategy here.
You should ask Moamar Quadaffi about the "comedy NATO members". Oh, that's right, he's gone and his country is liberated. You don't have a clue about what NATO could do to ANY country on this planet if they unleashed their full force and furry upon someone. You should be far more informed before making such a weak statement and thankful that NATO and it's members show such strong restraint.
Moreover I haven't say NATO is not strong. NATO is capable of doing lots of thing. Turkey is one of its founder country.
I used the term comedy since NATO member countries tied up before taking action. Lots of conflict of interest between those countries can naturally happen. NATO is useful against global treats and greedy dictators which have plenty of oil.
Syria has less oil so not really interesting... like any other African or far eastern countries. If you have oil, NATO helps
Hey Murat.... nobody is arguing about state leaders being liked or disliked. The difference between Libya and a free democratic country is that you can vote your leaders out of office if you don't like them. In Libya there were no elections to get rid of Gadafi, so the citizens protested, and he started killing them. Isn't this pretty much what is happening in Syria? Al asad needs to go, and if he won't listen to reason, and if he keeps killing his own people, then someone needs to step in and remove him from power, that's all there is to it.
How can anyone just sit there and watch him kill innocent women and children day after day?
I don't see how anyone with a brain can say that NATO is laughable? If we didn't have NATO, there would have been a 3rd world war, and the USSR and USA would have been on opposing sides.... That war would have been the end of any society as their are now known.
NATO has been a great deterrent to wars between super powers. If the West had not had the collective fighting power of NATO, the USSR would have surely been bold enough to attack us during the cold war.
I do however believe we can do without the UN, especially when somehow weak idiots keep ending up as it's leader.
Terry i don't understand why you talk about democracy in Libya. I am not denying Qaddafi was a dictator and he deserved. Please read carefully, what I am saying NATO is acting on Qaddafi because that country has plenty of oil that can not be left on its destiny. Same like Qaddafi or even much more worst dictators are there in other countries in Africa or Aisian countries and they are also killing their nations and there is no democracy there as well. is NATO acting on them? or Syria is under similar threat as you said, but NATO is waiting. So what you are saying and telling me like I don't have brain is showing is you have very narrow thinking. Erdogan was trying to take attention of NATO and world countires what's happining in Syrica since a long time and there was no action similar to Libya by NATO. WHY??? because not really rich country by its resources. That's what I am saying.
Also I already mention NATO is strong and effective against global threats. As you give axample 3rd world war. So no brain to repeat my words back to me, But yes I laugh NATO countires are funny because controlled by mainly US and also only acts where there is patrol or there is interest for them.
Kaddhafi was knocked off by the same bum who shot Bin Laden.
Libya has been destroyed and will never be the same in this century.
Murat, you act like someone is denying the fact that we do tend to protect countries that are rich in OIL. Think about why we do this. Take Iraq for instance. Iraq is very OIL rich, but the people of Iraq never benefited from it, it was the Husein regime that benefited, not the people. Same with Libya. We don't go in and take over a country and then take all of it's oil. If we did then don't you think the U.S. would not be in the economic bind it's in? Like it or not, oil makes the world turn. Oil rich countries need to have non-corrupt governments so that the entire country can benefit from the oil. I do not deny that we tend to help oil rich countries. In fact, I have never ever heard any person or government deny this fact. The sad thing is that someone has to do it.
Murat, first NATO is not controlled mainly by the U.S., the U.S. just happens to be the most militarily capable member of NATO. Let's not forget that Turkey was NATO commander during the Lybian issue.
To answer why the U.S. has not taken action thus far.... Here's the answers, Obama is too busy trying to push his stupid healthcare plan, Obama is too busy making sure Gays can be in the military, Obama is too busy with his re-election campaign. What has Obama actually achieved that was helpful to the U.S. Economy, or Foreign relations, or anything helpful for anyone in America? Has he actually kept any of his campaign promises..... this is what we have to deal with in this country, Obama is a lame duck. He does nothing!
Terry, you wrote: you act like someone is denying the fact that we do tend to protect countries that are rich in OIL
because they didn't give willingly.
actually what an example, do you think now oil goes to Public after American invasion????
(Yes they are happy you saved them from Saddam but they are sad US spoiled the country and that will never be same..'
----
this shall not be the fact of NATO, maybe its fact of US and some other benefiting countries around US, mainly England, France and etc. Turkey hos no oil or gas, and has no rich oil companies like US and only possible hope of Turkey as a member of NATO would be a stable neighbor so Turkey can stop terrorrist groups feeding from these countries and also start some trade with these countries. If Turkey is following up US in NATO is only reason is trying to have a stable middle east. Nothing else. Lion share goes to US as a lion contributor to military actions. US also wants stable middle east but under ONE MAJOR CONDITION: OIL WILL BE THEIRS. Otherwise they will take the oil anyway but result will be like Iraq
actually we agree on help goes to rich countries...
Irak is a good example
Do you think now Iraq public is happy
By the way I would like to see the oil usage agreements between Iraq and America after invasion and before invasion.
cheers...
They did,just to bring back oil dollars for good old usa......bravo nato members you all diging your economick graves.
Comedy .
MURAT arkadas ...Senın mantıgına gore Yunanıstan ıle IT DALISINDA her gun bır ucak dusurulmelıydı ..Neredeyse her gun Yunanıstan ıle sınır ıhlalı oluyor.VE F16 ıle bunlar SURIYE ucagı gıbı sılahsızda degıller.Bılmem anlayabılıyormusun ! Burda tek 1 ucak bıle dusmuyorken .Sılahsız bır kesıf ucagı hıc bır ıkaz olmadan dusuruluyor.Ellerındekı cıhazlar ucagı tanımlamıs sılahsız oldugu 'KABAK GIBI' tabırıyle bılnıyrken onu dusurmek BIR ZEVK gıbıdır...(SURIYE ) mantalıtesıne sahıp KAN EMICILER ıcın .Sen kımın yanındasın bunlar nasıl sozler anlamadım .Nusayrı dıye GOOGLE yaz .Onların nasıl bır DINI YOLA sahıp olduklarını görursun.ISRAIL den hıc bır farkları yok
Surıyenın
Kenan, not many of us speak Turkish here, so your words were pretty much wasted if in fact you wanted your opinion to be known to all readers.
Kenan, actually I am not able to express mysely clearly I beleive.
Yes I agree with you similar violations happens between neighbor countires 100 times, especially Turkey-Greece and never happens such case, HOWEVER, Greece or any other neighbor is not similar condition. We have recently completely finished all our diplomatic relations with Syria, all ambossadors etc was taken back from both sides.. Syria is not only controlled by Esad, Esad has very limited effect on their military forces, Syrica in fact has multiple heads. Esad is the official face. There are commanders in Syria which acts totally after individual interests. They might be even happy to have some action on there. However Greece was never unstable like that, there was always some powers holding back the military actions back..
Moreover look at the consequences now, let's say we are right, we did no do anything wrong, so what? what we will gain from this? are these pilots can be easly grown in Turkey. If I would be the commander of these piltos, I would command them 'stay away from any possible violation that can give damage the existing condition' If we can not declare war against Greece, than we shall not violate the borders. I don;t believe pilots violtaed the border by mistake, they were just thinking or being instructed nothing happens to us. Nobody thought possible consequences..
Anyway, this discussion goes nowhere, I am a guy who likes to take every and each measure before it happens, i wouldn't take any step that I couldn't finish. Let's see what will happen now..
Klatuu berada nikto.
Doug, Gaunt and Jeff.
Turkey is simply meeting and consulting with NATO members, not asking for help, do not interpret it differently and take it out of context. They will not ask to activate Article 5 and they have no interest in initiating an attack to Syria, as long as there is no further hostility from Syria which warrants a war.
Read the article, people. Clearly, it states that the Turkish UNARMED jet was shot down in INTERNATIONAL waters. Rules are rules, people. The UNARMED Turkish jet was supposed to get a WARNING and this did not happen. This is a BRAZEN act and it underscores international law. Given that both countries neighbor each other, it is LIKELY this will happen and possibly again. Ignorance annoys me.
I fully agree with you. Military jets are -by virtue of their speed- allowed to violate a neighbouring air-space slightly. Also in the case of Syria, international waters extend up to a yard of their coastline. Not to mention the Turkish F4E (RF4E) was friendly and not armed to the teeth.
And the turks just flone there to give lolis for a syrian children?!
Isn't this headline a bit ridiculos? Why would NATO respond militarily to the downing of a Turkish plane? The plane did fly into Syrian airspace, besides, if you are looking for help NATO is not the place to ask for it. If I were a foreign dictator, NATO would be the last thing I would fear. NATO has always been a joke.
Go tell that to Muammar Gaddafi dude
NATO and the UN ARE a joke .
What a childish comment. NATO would be the last thing you would fear? lets ask Dictators Mullah Omar of the Afghan Taliban and Gadhaffi of Libya and Milosovic of Serbia if NATO was the LAST thing they feared or not. NATO is an incredibly effective organisation that kept the Warsaw pact at bay for decades and has won every war it has ever engaged in.
The UN is also an incredibly effective tool, but thats all it is: a tool and a methodology. It cannot, and was never designed to, dictate or compel its members, only to provide a forum.
Gaunt is a dirty rotten liar.
maltesefalconx9: Nah, that's you, you're a dirty rotten propagandist.
Mullah Omar defeated.... NATO
Article 5 of the Washington Treaty was *not* "created after the attack on the United States on September 11, 2001." Making such a statement is either very sloppy journalism and poor editorial oversight or deliberate distortion.
It was only activated once and it was for United States after 9-11. NATO warplanes, including Turkish ones, were flying in US skies after 9-11. And NATO is still in Afghanistan. That's what they mean, it sounds correct now, not sure if there was different texting and they changed it later.
Another point worthy of clarification– Turkey can't force anyone into war. It can ask for consultations, and that's it. The member-states of NATO have to agree that a violation of Article 6 has occurred (attack over the member-state's territory), THEN they refer it to the UN Security Council, THEN depending on whether or not the Security Council takes up the matter, the member-states are obligated to respond– but each gets to choose HOW they respond.
I love the idea of invoking Article 5 on what apparently was a mission to measure the Syrian reflexes. Just think of it. State A (Turkey) sends a couple of jets to overfly State B (Syria), the later shots one of them down, then State A accuses State B for aggression. Have seen wars breaking for much less than that. Given the Russian military presence in Syria, this could quickly escalate into something global, wow, I like it, get these commies before they get you.
Turkey was really stupid. Why would it fly so close to Syria? A clear provocation intended to drag the West in. i don't think so, Turkey!
The Russians fly along the Norwegian coast from time to time, still you don't see the Norwegians shooting down Russian jets do you?
Thing is, no nation with any sense just shoots down anything that comes into its airspace, especialy not with a civil war going on and when they have only a few allies in the world. This doesn't call for article 5, but if the Syrian side continues to provoce Turkey, they might very well take some kind of action on their own, or with the help of other Arab nations, and that would be the end of the Assad goverment.
So really, Syria is walking on thin ice here.
Norwegia is not in war with anyone,so they can have the luxury to worn the erring planes first!
I agree. the space between the Mediterranean and Turkey is very small, and there is no reason why Turkey should fly a fighting jet in that region. They have to go around Cypress to even come close to Syria. That being said, I am however against the Syrian Governments extreme tactics against their own people. And I condemn the Governing Leaders for treating their people like pathetic defenseless mice. The Syrian People want a democracy, give it to them. The day's of an autocratic society are stressed, and obsolete.
Over last year, Syria violated Turkish airspace for 5 times and Turkey never shoot down their jets. Now who is stupid, Turkey, Syria or you?
Turkey's air space has been violated 114 separate times so far this year but each instance was quickly reso lved peacefully. It happens between neighbours, decent nations follow procedure and issue a warning, problem gets solved without any need to violence or escalation. Turkey could have downed 114 planes for airspace violations with your ridiculous logic.
Dianne, where are you getting your information from? I heard it was only 113 times.
Grow up Terry. That's the officially released number which was on European media yesterday, such can be disputed anywhere as one wishes.
Of this 114 aeroplains how many was a spy plain?Was any war there in sourranding turkia?
This is a perfect opportunity for NATO to encoke article 5. The only difference is that it must be Turkey that leads the assault and the US will support them from the air and with technology. Arab nations need to resolve this conflict. European countries and the US have too much to lose if they lead the war. We already are hated in the region, and sending in grou d troops will make it worse. Drones and F- 22's should be more than enough help that the powerful Turkish needs.
Just a minor correction for the earlier note: Turkey is not an arabic country, never been never will. Turks are central asian people span from Mongolia to to Turkey. One of the issues they face is the hatred from countries like Syria (all arabic countries have some sort of anger towards Turks) due to history. Historically Turks ruled all the arab lands, finished off all arab empires as well as the Persian empire. So Turkey has no friends in the region, the closest friend Turkey ever had and ever will is USA.
Wrong, just wrong. Until you spend 5 years in Izmir, Turkey (in the community), don't insult the Turks by labeling their country as a non-arabic country. Has nothing to do with Asia at all, and yes, they are proud muslims who actually follow their religion.
I counter your knowledge of the regions politics with the following. Why then has the OIC & Arab League taken the same stance against Assad as Turkey? You are muddling realities of the region by making rash anti-Turkish statements which at best are out of date. A more accurate depiction, if you want to take the Turkey has no friends path, would be to explain to readers how Sunni v Shia, Wahhabi v Ottoman and Western driven Pan-Arabism has affected Turkeys image – in this day and age it actually isn't as bad as some true Turkophobes (Greeks, Armenians, Russians) would want. I'll give you the Persians outright though. Iran wants to be top dog. It has competed for and more often than not lost this to the Turks for a 1000yrs. Still, none of you have given a decent explanation as to why Syria is right in shooting down a Turkish jet.
Turkey crushed Persia is a very wrong statement. Look at the Otto-persian war online or read a book, the war lasted 4 centuries Persians outnumbered 3-1 the with inferior weaponry adopted a way of asymmetrical warfare that repelled three successive ottoman attack and led to a peace treaty that restored borders and ultimately caused the ottoman empire to crumble from the west. Similar incident happened to the Romans when they tried to invade Persia years before. Ottoman empire was alive for a very short period of time Persian empire had lasted over 3000 years.
It is true that Turks and Arabs historically do not trust eachother and can not make allies. Turkey sees the United States and Europe as its allies, Turks do not trust anybody to their south and east nearly as much.
John, as a turkish citizen I say "you are absolutely right !" Turkey is not an arabic country ! and has no friends in region ! only friend that Turkey has is US !
Sorry Shahun but who made the statement "Turkey crushed Persia..."?
I think china and russia would agree with your taktics too?
and what about the Russian military and naval base and the aircraft carrier Admiral Kutsenov and the Russian missile defence shield protecting Syria????
Kuznetsov is an old rust bucket, very inefficent.
Pft, Russia's millitary would not dare to engage any NATO forces, loss is inevitable if they did. The NATO nations control the most advanced and the largest armed forces in the world, and even small constributions from each member nation would be a formidable force when gathered. Added to that you have that Turkey is a power in its own right, certainly equiped to deal with the outdated and demoralized Syrian forces and more than capable of handling whatever remnants of the cold war that Russia has stored away in their port.
Right on! National Geographic did a report on the Soviet war machine many years after the end of the USSR and found it rusting and stripped for profit. Doubt if the Russians will have the where with all to rebuild any of it.
I can borrow you my glassis if you are half blind.Russia sales this Nato members oil and gas.Wot would happen is russia just turns the tap off?
The US should get involved because Turkey and Syria do not have huge amounts of oil.
sorry, typo; do NOT have ...
It's official, I am an idiot...
I was trying to type that the US should NOT get involved because Turkey and Syria do not have huge amounts of oil. Especially not in an election year.
What was the consequence when a US army boat shot an Iranian airliner with 205 innocent civilians out of the sky? Nothing ! Why would NATO now get involved if Turkey decides to let a warplane fly over a country where there is a civil war going on ?
Dont forget KAL shot down by USS
Sizable... Apples & oranges. C'mon man, what the? Are you actually making an effort to evaluate the facts, or are you just running full steam with eyes shut?
Why should the U.S. attack Syria for what the Turks did? It was the Turks who irresponsibly sent that warplane inside Syrian territory and now we're supposed to be dumb enough to attack Syria for that stupidity! This is getting absurd but not to the morons here who like war, I suppose!!!
Why NATO and friends of USA attacked to Afghanistan and Iraq? Going from your point of view it was USA's problem. If necessary NATO should attack Syria too. NATO does not exists only for USA! P.S I'm not supporting war.
The truth is, the U.S. would go in and help the Syrian people if we had a president with a backbone! And a Congress that could agree on something.
@Terry, you are right. I don't believe that U.S will take an important role on this issue. Right now, Obama is trying to save his "seat" in White House and trying to avoid all kind of risks.
Multiple world leaders criticise Syria for effectively defending its territory – would any of their countries do any less? What a joke.
Dude, what did the Turkish plane do that's so threatening? For Gods sake all you Turk haters get a grip!
Doug, how would you feel if Cuba suddenly sent a fighter jet over here? Would you like it? I find that dubious!
What can I say ,cry baby turkey. Hind behind your master,what can you do?
I repeat what was the Turkish threat? Has Turkey declared war on Assad? Has it opened fire on Syrian forces? From the beginning, all Erdogan has said is, Assad reform, listen to the masses or step aside. Are you suggesting that Assad seriously felt the Turks were on their way with something devastating? Or that they were going to discover something they don't already know. Syria had no choice but to shoot? C'mon! You are clutching at straws comparing this to US-Cuba. This year alone the Turks have had 114 air space violations. Greeks, Iranians, Israelis, French, Italians. All identified, intercepted/warned. None blown out of the sky. Read the article carefully, it was a momentary incursion with Davutoglu implying that it didn't even warrant radio contact let alone a missile response – 10 miles out at sea George!!!
Rory, I guess we'll wait and see. I remember in 99 when Turkey lined the Syrian border with a battalion of tanks, Assad Snr didn't take too long to notice and kick Ocalan out after years of being his champion in defiance of Ankara. If anything Putin the bald Slav is playing master of Syria and Turkey is limited in its abilities against Russia. Otherwise, the Syrian armed forces wouldn't last a week against the Turkish Navy and Airforce – sheer numbers even if technology is fairly even.
Would Cuba be so stupid to send one of their nine fighter jets here? And I doubt we would shoot it down, as the likely reason for flying into our airspace would be to request asylum.
Who is this "Doug" from the Propaganda MInistry?
You should be able to post your propaganda without anyone posting the truth in return so that you can fool as many clueless third parties as possible, right? It doesn't work that way. They respond with truth and they become the propagandists? Good try at turning the table around.
Unfortunately, there is no propaganda ministry. Just the facts.
Sizeable... Apples & oranges. C'mon man, what the? Are you actually making an effort to evaluate the facts, or are you just running full steam with eyes shut?
Can someone explain to me why none of this was discussed when Israel attacked the Turkish vessel in international waters and killed 9 humanitarians?
Secondly, Turkey invaded Syrias airspace without authorisation. Is it not true that Syria has the right to defend its airspace from unknown threats? Why is this aspect of the situation not being explored?
It has been explored. Read the article properly. Davutoglu says there was no radio warning, no jets sent to force landing or retreat. In fact he implies there was no need for any of these measures any way as the incursion was momentary. Thus there was also absolutely NO NEED to shoot the plane down either.
I don't understand the Support for Assad here. You'd think Turkey has some reason to peek into Syria considering its dealing with nearly 40K refugees due to the mess Assad has created and left to fester. How easy it must be for the lot of you to judge and condemn from 1000s of miles away!
Simpel,the turks send a spyplain over syria and the syrians promptly shoot it down.End of story.
Turkey has no right to involve other internal country issue. Only NATO has the right to decide to solve the situation by means of peace without bloodshed. That has been the Syria it own issue affair for long time.
no reason to save the muslims from each other, its been going on 1400 years , why stop now ?
Who in the world gets an editor to publish this garbage. The US is not going to get involved in this slaughter of a civil war or the problems between Syria and Turkey. Let them handle their own affairs as we are not going to be the policeman of the world. And evidently the UN is not going to either.
No, it may explode to a WW III. Let the Arab league handle this.
Ya, start a world war for one plane...
aircraft not to ...
two lives.(innocent)..
As your parents...
"The clause was created after the attack on the United States on September 11, 2001, and the military response to 9/11 is the only time it has been used."
You should correct the first part of that statement. First time invoked- yes. "created" on September 12,2001 - no.
Thank you for correcting this article. It's amazing how in the world of self-publishing this incorrect information just gets passed on as if it is fact.
Agreed.
And BTW Murat. I realize that life in Lybia right now probably sux because the government is in chaos right now, democracy is not born over night, but now that Gadafi is gone, Lybia has a chance for a bright future.